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FYI - references in murli indicating how coming of Shiv Baba

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VisionOfSelf wrote:
For 1: They were too deep to be understood by Brahma Baba and those of the initial days.

According to the Knowledge, the inner circle were far higher that today's souls and the outer world is meant to have been deteriorating. Therefore, according to the knowledge, individuals in the outer world should be more body conscious and at a lower state than the originals.

But this idea of gradual evolution being acceptable is a myth the leadership is wanting to create. In fact, the knowledge was not "too deep" although it is true, LK's mentality was a block to deeper understanding and he apparently enjoyed being God for 12 or more years. The knowledge is incredibly simple a child can grasp it and with the total authority Kripalani and Om Radhe had, it would have been simple to teach. The Mandli also included Sikhs, Muslims, and those with very little to not religious conditional at all ... the children.

BTW, how did the Om Mandli purify themselves if they did not know Shiva and the soul to do BK Raja Yoga?
I do think that while giving the course BKs are obligated to tell the world that we had NOT figured the knowledge out from day 1 and that this knowledge very much evolved with time, and how it evolved through time. Essentially: download/file.php?id=32

This is fascinating. It is basically what the real Brahma Kumaris Info and the PBKs/AIVV have been saying for years, and see this forum's topic here: here. For the first time, the BK leadership finally admit that the 1936 "Shivoham, Shivoham ..." story is lie. Now they claim it happened 12 years later in 1948.

How "official" is this?

I can tell you now, this version is still peppered with inaccuracies and exaggeration, and there are more revelations to come out that will blow it away. Even the BKWSU knows more and is hiding it.

Is this Tamasin Ramsay's work? She borrowed a load of material off BrahmaKumaris.Info without crediting it, only to be negative about it afterwards.
My guess for example, would be someone is going to come along and show that the cycle is 6253 years. And that's actually fine if one can accept how things have become refined with time.

Fine? It's utterly unethical having induced generations of BK to surrender their man, tan and dhan, and screw up their lives, on the basis of a 2036 start for heaven on earth.
The more critical question though is am I helping make myself a better person and the world a better place to live in?

Let's start discussing ethics then and draw deadline by which Destruction does not happen, the BKWSU call it quits and gives over its money to the Indian government for the use of real charity.

For Lekhraj Kripalani, that date was 1976 even after he had become "perfect". In my generation, it was 1986.

50 years for Destruction, 50 years for Creation.

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meerababa wrote:
For the first time, the BK leadership finally admit that the 1936 "Shivoham, Shivoham ..." story is lie

This is not true that the "story is a lie". As per Dadi Brij Indra (daughter in law of Dada Lekhraj) she vividly describes the scenes she saw and there is a mp3 floating around of her account (This would be a primary witness account). Apparently it is her story that Jagdish Chander wrote in Adi Dev. Thus we can't actually jump to conclusions that "Adi Dev" book is false, although some BKs have concluded so.

There can be many __interpretations__ of whether what she is recollecting is accurate or not OR whether it was Brahma Baba who was just chanting Shivohum, Shivohum on his own (which is not uncommon on the path of devotion*) which Dadi Brij Indra perceived it to be Shiv Baba etc.

Whatever the case, there is a primary witness account of the Shivohum incident which could be considered authoritative.

* - e.g. see
"Chidananda roopam Shivohuam, Shivoham" is the chorus.

"Shivohum" is a very popular concept advocated by Shankaracharya ... on_Nirvana

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Greetings. The weight of evidence from copious documents of the period 1936-1950, and occasional class mentions by Dadi Kumarka in the 1980's which I have seen, and Dadi Gulzar, as well as my own conversations with the latter, clearly indicate that Dadi Brij Indra's memory/statement is not the inerpretation that should be accepted as actual. Of course, we can interpret 75 years after the event that Bhai Lekraj was just chanting Shivo Hum,,,as Dadi Gulzar says they all did...but that is just being wise after the event.

Praise the Lord that soon reality will be grasped...and even better...appreciated.

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Can anyone tell me if 2036 is now officially the new date for vinash ('transformation')?

VofS - you say "For me the test of knowledge is if BKs can establish the Golden age.". I think it is good that people have a test or touchstone of some sort or other.

They say history repeats for those who don't learn its lessons. And every generation seems to make the mistakes of its forebearers...

VoS - Have you set yourself a limit for when this should happen by? Given the pattern, that all dates stated overtly or otherwise, in murli or by seniors' & others' churnings etc - have all failed to be realised and have then been ''refined" as you call it (pushed back and re-rationalised) why would you consider that this current generation of BKs won't find the pattern repeating?

In Islam they say "trust in God AND tie up your camel" - I wonder if younger BKs are still discouraged from preparing for retirement and old-age.

If not, what does that imply?

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There is NO official date.

The limit is "ASAP". While embarrassing that we've slipped the dates (1950, 1976, 1986, ...), we've also made tonnes of progress. Having 1 million people following celibacy (there are about 1 million BKs now) is not a joke and don't think any other organisation has achieved this. You could argue whether celibacy is really "purity" or not, but that would be another discussion. How have 1 million people achieved such[internal] power that they are able to overcome the pull of the sex-lust -- that is amazing.

Pink Panther wrote:
In Islam they say "trust in God AND tie up your camel" - I wonder if younger BKs are still discouraged from preparing for retirement and old-age.

I have been (and I think BKs are) encouraged to be financially independent. BKs should NOT quit their jobs unless they have demonstrated a high level of involvement in service that it warrants their leaving their job.

Yes this implies we are now robust to slipping our deadlines :)

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No official date? Then, as you said VofS , as you use whether the BKs can establish a golden age (or whatever term) as a measure, that must mean you yourself have some sort of timeline in mind?
I assume it's within your lifetime at least? ;)

1 million people - The "pull" of sex lust? :lol: Easy. No great achievement.

If you did a little research you'd find that "celibacy" is actually quite commonplace, a.k.a. "not getting any". e.g. many married couples after childbirth or middle-age end up 'celibate" quite 'naturally"!!!

Example - I have mentioned elsewhere Gandhi's statement that non-violence is only virtuous in those who have the physical ability, skills, courage and mental potential to be violent but choose not to be, even when sorely tempted or provoked.

Non-violence is not a virtue in a coward or a hermit with no-one to fight, or a warrior with no reason to fight, or in someone who can't mentally or physically bring themselves to act that way, going jelly-kneed at even a small confrontation with a shop assistant! Such people are incapable of violence, that's different to choosing non-violence in a situation. (I am talking about controlled choice, not irrational uncontrolled outbursts of bottled up emotions - anyone is capable of that, I've seen BKs lose it at each other!).

So with that measure in mind: - if out of your 1 million BKs, it was possible to accurately survey and discount anyone who was celibate' because they were:
- too old, or too young
- had issues (physical or mental) around sex etc,
- were socially "inadequate" (i.e uncomfortable with pursuing it)
-set unrealistic pre-conditions as to whom they might mate with,
- were geographically isolated,
- socially isolated (eg homosexual in places where that is not socially acceptable) etc
- secretly having sexual relations
- don't really want to be celibate , but are tormented by their belief in the BK doctrines

... and so forth - if you only counted those who were potentially both willing and able to, attractive enough, well-placed, socially competent etc but still CHOSE NOT to, you would probably find the BK figure was not very dissimilar to the numbers in the general population!! (After all, at any period of time, say, 6 months, the numbers who don't have sex will far outweigh those that do)

Other "categories" or groupings could easily be formulated to get even more impressive numbers than the BKs. Just look at, say, the number of teenage Thai boys that enter buddhist monasteries for a year or two as part of their culture. Now teenage boys controlling sexual urges. That's something! (not saying all succeed equally... but same for BKs, RC priests et al).

Then there's the (more important) aspect (spiritually) of how one responds internally when the "pattern" of attraction arises. For example : Self-mortification is proof that one equates noticing "beauty" with "I want". How many can still appreciate beauty without wanting to "own" it? How many divert sexual desire to chasing other "I want"s that are more acceptable but just as harmful?

Is sex lust so different to other desires for something, anything? - e.g. recognition, loyalty, respect, certain food, certain possessions, status, etc? Can not any of these "lock" the intellect" if they become disproportionate?

( I know its off topic but it does link together - feel free to move to another topic if you must)
Last edited by Pink Panther on Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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No official date? Then, as you said VofS , as you use whether the BKs can establish a golden age (or whatever term) as a measure, that must mean you yourself have some sort of timeline in mind? I assume it's within your lifetime at least? ;)

Yes aim is within my lifetime. I agree it is embarrassing that we've(BKs) been a bit slow in bringing about the Golden age. Sorry.
However it is faith that it is something we can achieve one day.

A famous inspirational song, "Hum honge Kamiyaab" or "We will succeed/overcome one day":
( for a better translation)

Where is my faith coming from? From the knowledge and the murlis. One can decide for himself/herself. Despite the what appears to be "failed"* predictions in 1950, 1976, etc. I personally can't write off all the other knowledge & the various concepts of spirituality that I was searching for for many years & the benefit derived.

* - Btw faith is There is benefit in each and every word of the benevolent Father.
Certainly one needs to be mature in understanding the knowledge. I've learned literal interpretation does not always work. That's why it is said [BK] knowledge is slippery.

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Murli point:- A soul is like a star. Something big would not be able to stay in the centre of the forehead. It must definitely be something that can't be seen with these eyes. If it were big, it could be seen. A soul is extremely subtle, like a point. These are the deepest things. In the beginning, you were told that the soul is the element of light. If you had been told in the beginning that it is like a star, you wouldn't have been able to understand. He would not give you all the knowledge in just one day. Day by Day, the Father tells you very deep things.

PP questioned:- If the various aspects of gyan were too "deep" to be understood if presented accurately at the beginning, and that's why they had to be gradually "revealed" over many years to be understood, why then is it that people nowadays, like yourself (and me?) grasp it over a course of 7 days or so?

Another murli point:- (not in exact words) Jaise samay chaltaa jaayegaa, vaataavaran badlegaa, phir yah paldaa ke badley vah paldaa bhaaree ho jaayegaa = as time continues, the atmosphere will change. Then instead of this plate, (in the common balance) the other plate will become heavy and then people will be able to understand easily.

Many times, people understand something later. For example- Christ was accepted by people later. When he was there practically, in full inspirational power, purity, they put him to the cross, is it not?

Galileo was understood later, initially he was put in jail, is it not?

Today's children can understand science, computer easily. Could the people of olden days understood in the same way or can the adult people who are of older generation understand in the same way/speed?

In the initial days- when BKs used to go to a house to give message and knock the door, people would have opened and when they came to know this is Bk, they would have shut then and there itself. Why today they do not do that?

As the technology, popularity changes - people's wrong belief or attitude changes and they become open to grasp.

Any new thing is difficult to understand for anyone.

About train- when it was first introduced in India- during British period - some people thought- the train is a demon spitting smoke.

[Today people may believe on anything if science predicts extra ordinary things- because science has already given enough examples in the past. It has already made the image.]

People after buying a product, then if the experience is good, others also listen to it and its image changes in society,. Then even one who has no previous experience will not have any doubt to the product.

Why a child has fear of new person? say after a day or two it then becomes friendly.

Similarly- now image of BKWSU is changing as well the whole world is also changing. Initially- widow was considered to be highly bad, .....Woman had legally no respect or very less. Now that is getting changed, is it not?

In olden days- was there human right association? No. People used to kill others like animals. Might was Right. But, now it is changing.

People are intellectually exercising better nowadays or at least agree that they also have responsibility in understanding the things and people.

Very simple , is it not?
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.


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