Board index BK Section (BKs & New BK students only please) Murli Points Discussion Atma kya hen? ek shakti ya ek bastu?

Atma kya hen? ek shakti ya ek bastu?


Post Tue May 08, 2018 4:59 pm

Posts: 2536
Link with BKs: BK
# Post No. 07/01:-
I do not understand your answer.

101) https://googleweblight.com/i?u=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy&hl=en-IN

In the above link, kindly go through REST ENERGY.

Q2. Please define object (वस्तु) and energy (शक्ति) as per your understanding
A2. As I understand the answer to be Object - which has a shape / which takes a 3 dimensional space. And which has mass.

102) An object is one that has mass and occupies space(means it should have size/volume too) . This is what I had studied in 5th class.

If you do not like to talk about mass, then would that be a right definition of object?
(BTW- if you see the definitions given in the dictionary, one dictionary says -
An object is something which is visible and can be touched!

Then obviously, as per above definition, soul cannot be called as an object! *

[Dear soul,
Note that as a COMMON MAN, no one will use the word object for many objects.
Search for the definitions of machine, battery, house, proton, electron, etc, etc.]

Please write the definition of “Energy” as per your understanding.

103) Something that has ability to do work.

104) Dear soul,
I would like to ask you one questions as a COMMON MAN. What work does a light can do? Example- you have a torch light. When you switch it on, what work does it do?
Q3. .....

Not answered.

105) You r definition of object was not complete. You did not discuss about mass. So- how can I select your options?

The answer is not appropriate to your suggested topic name.

106) That is not a problem. Do not expect the conclusion should follow the topic name.
What I meant was- if someone has doubt, he can put it as that question. Even though his topic name is not wrong.
What I mean is- to expect the conclusion should always follow topic name is wrong.

The topic name can also be -" should we say soul as energy, or object or both?" I purposely did not write this, because it then gives a hint that the topic starter is expecting something before the discussion.

A topic can be the conclusion itself. In that case, the topic starter would be like more of like giving lecture than discussion. But, in most of your topics, you just put questions, do not write your arguments. You usually wait and ask others to reply before giving your conclusion.
That is why I gave that topic title- which is slightly better, because it gives more room for the discussion. The present topic title- expects someone to choose- EITHER ..... OR.
But, still it is NOT wrong.
[But, you kept on saying - " I repeat there cannot be any discussion if we consider object is energy"- I think this is not a good practice. This is shutting someone's mouth before listening to him.].

107) Dear soul, these are minor matters- what should be the topic title, etc. .

If you are really interested in gyaan discussion, and to explore the knowledge, you should at least try to comment what is said in 88.

Rest is left to you. I have absolutely no objection by any conclusion you draw, because what we say is next, what we do stands first. We all usually say jyotibindu. Then it will take care of itself.

Baba and drama.

–------
*. - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/object
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Wed May 09, 2018 11:47 am

Posts: 179
Link with BKs: BK
Om Shanti

Dear Divine brother mbbhatji,

The quoted link https://googleweblight.com/i?u=https:// ... y&hl=en-IN says that
any object that has mass when stationary (called rest mass) also has an equivalent amount of energy whose form is called rest energy.


In table format it is written that
Rest Energy - the potential energy due to object’s rest mass.


I understand or anybody can understand from these sentences that object contains energy due to its rest mass.

This does not say that we should understand the object as energy or potential energy.

If a question is asked to someone showing the object that “What is this”
The answer will be “This is an object”
The answer can never be “ This is Rest Energy / Potential Energy / Energy” though that object can produce energy equivalent to its Rest mass.

I do not want to hurt you, but as per my understanding “Neither scientifically it is correct to say a physical object is energy nor the physical object can be considered as energy.”

But the physical object contains rest energy. The physical object is not rest energy itself.

The Rest Energy of that object is how much potential the object has to perform work.

Yours brother
BK Atulya

Post Wed May 09, 2018 11:11 pm

Posts: 2536
Link with BKs: BK
# Post No. 07/02:-

This does not say that we should understand the object as energy or potential energy.

108) No need to think so. How can one expect to equate word meaning of OBJECT to ENERGY? * Have I ever said word meaning of object is energy?

You had said talk to a COMMON man.

Kindly note the points there in the link - "energy and mass are " closely related."

If a question is asked to someone showing the object that “What is this”
The answer will be “This is an object".

109) No doubt soul is an object.
Now, can you show or touch a soul?!

If you keep on saying (as if) - "A battery is not ENERGY, it is object " , " sun is not ENERGY, it is an object", " Food is an object, not energy"- what purpose is attained?
[Kindly note that when discussing about food, two units would be mentioned. One it's mass, another calorific value or vitamin value. The former is related to object, latter to ENERGY or power.

Similarly, for a battery - it's volt-ampere ratings would be mentioned which are related to ENERGY.

So, as a common man, word ENERGY has almost equal value as that of OBJECT]

I do not want to hurt you, but as per my understanding “Neither scientifically it is correct to say a physical object is energy nor the physical object can be considered as energy.”

110) Nowhere I have equated word meaning of OBJECT to be ENERGY. So, that question does not arise. *

So, dear soul, kindly think to what level our arguments have reached. They have crossed beyond the level of common man . So, no purpose will be solved.

Some Bks may feel word object is better, some may think word ENERGY is better.
As I have already said- I have no problem with any word.

111) But , you did not address many points- which as a COMMON MAN, or COMMON SENSE, (eg - 91a, ) , one will have to agree that soul is also ENERGY. **

Why don't you consider those points???

BTW- scientifically, the mass/form of an OBJECT after doing work, CHANGES.

Now, does mass/form of a soul change after it does work(any action or service, etc)? Answer will be No. A soul's form is fixed.

So, from where the energy came? So, we cannot argue just scientifically. Because soul is ABOVE that. We all are master creators. So, if we talk on the basis of just lowkik world languages , we are forgetting our SELF ESTEEM.

So, I am happy with using any word . Even Shivbaba has no objection- as already put in point no. 17 or 85.

---

* 112)- The topic or matter of discussion is- "Whether soul is object or energy" . The topic is not "Whether (word meaning of ) object can be equated to energy" .
But, unknowingly, we go out of the track when we try to justify ourselves beyond the limit.

113) The knowledge is such a gem that as one inculcates it, one gets the ability to give his own directions/churning- Post No. 235 http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1167&start=300#p16274

When you possess something, you will start doing of your own things, because, you have digested it (at least to a considerable extent). Of course, the BASICS/foundation cannot be altered.

114) Many options are discussed in point no. 91. Take views of a COMMON MAN, or logically, spiritually, or scientifically, I believe it is not wrong to say a soul is energy (too). Because its ENERGY property is almost independent of the OBJECT property.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Thu May 10, 2018 8:19 am

Posts: 379
Location: Panvel
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Just came across the law of attraction. Below is some information from Wikipedia. Worth churning.

In the New Thought philosophy, the law of attraction is the belief that by focusing on positive or negative thoughts people can bring positive or negative experiences into their life.

The belief is based on the idea that people and their thoughts are both made from "pure energy", and that through the process of "like energy attracting like energy" a person can improve their own health, wealth and personal relationships.

Would try to add from there to churn more.
बहानेबाज़ी को मर्ज करो और बेहद की वैराग्यवृत्ति को इमर्ज करो।

Post Thu May 10, 2018 10:47 am

Posts: 179
Link with BKs: BK
Om Shanti

Dear Divine brother mbbhatji

Though we are not discussing about soul, but we are discussing on the words which are in the base of the question. So we are not completely out of topic. I think it is a good discussion. Sometimes I feel good to study the books of my child-hood and find new things which I had not understood at that time. Similarly now I came to know that though physics deals with object, still the definition of object is not clearly stated.

However in no website I could find your additional word that it should have mass, and then only it can be called as object.

If you find it in web, please write the link.

I have referred many web-sites for the definition of object and feel the simplest to be “object – that which has shape”

I shall request you not to move fast, because I am not able to cope up with you. I shall try to post my opinion for all your points. But let us be clear about the words “object” and “energy”.

Your definition of Energy: -
103) something that has ability to do work.


The meaning of this sentence as I understand to be “Energy” is something which has ability to do work. OR Energy has ability to do work.

I disagree on the definition “Energy is not something that has ability to do work”

But ability of a physical system to perform work is Energy.

In simple sentence Energy – ability to perform work.

In your quoted web link it is defined as
energy is the quantitative property that must be transferred to an object in order to perform work.


If we simplify the sentence - energy is a property / characteristic of a system which can be quantified /calculated.

Since it is the ability of a system to perform work, then it has no existence without the physical system or in simple word source.

Yours brother
BK Atulya

Post Thu May 10, 2018 12:44 pm

Posts: 2536
Link with BKs: BK
# Post No. 07/03:-

115) Definition of matter - https://googleweblight.com/i?u=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter&hl=en-IN

It says a matter is something which has mass and volume. I believe physical matter or physical object - both are one and the same.(at least in this topic) . Do You agree?

116) If you do not agree, kindly discriminate between physical object and physical matter with examples for both.
Also kindly mention where do these(substance, device, particle, species, etc) fit. Do they fit in the category of OBJECT or MATTER?

Note that what all examples you have given like battery, magnet, sun, star, lamp, etc have both mass and volume.

117) Note that - in the latter paragraphs of the link, more characteristics of mass and matter are said.
Similarly, you will find various definitions for object in various links or dictionaries.

Now, which definition you are going to select?- As a scientific person and/or as a COMMON man? Kindly give proper justifications for your claims.

118) I have selected the simplest definition of matter given in the first para of the web site said in 115). And, in simple terms or as a common man, I believe physical object or physical matter are almost same.

119) I think( most probably), the term matter is used for those which have mass. And, the term object is used for those which are visible and can be touched. So, I believe an object should definitely be a matter.
But , a soul is neither visible, not can be touched. Then how can it be called as OBJECT in lowkik language meaning?.*

*120) - Baba uses the word OBJECT for soul. But, as per lowkik definition, it does not fit. So, if we argue in lowkik way, or scientific way, where will we reach?
Baba uses simple terms , OBJECT is the simplest term. Term MATTER is complicated one.

So, trying to compare the murli words with lowkik language or science would lead no result.

But, it is perfectly right for us to discuss in forums. So, no problem. But, a common man will not be able to follow or cope up with such thoughts. But, we ourselves can improve our churning.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Fri May 11, 2018 7:26 am

Posts: 179
Link with BKs: BK
Om Shanti

Dear Divine brother mbbhatji

Please refer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_body in which the physical object is defined as -
physical object (or simply a body or object) is an identifiable collection of matter, which may be constrained by an identifiable boundary, and may move as a unit by translation or rotation, in 3-dimensional space.


So object is collection of matter. But matter is not collection of objects.

In Hindi matter is called “ पदार्थ “ and object is called “बस्तु”

In this topic we are discussing on two words “बस्तु” and “शक्ति”

So we should be limited to these two words.

Yours brother
BK Atulya

Post Fri May 11, 2018 3:21 pm

Posts: 379
Location: Panvel
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Wow, nice play of words. By the way energy is ऊर्जा and power would be शक्ती! Chalo aur ek churning!

दोनो आयेगी बाबा से ही! Whatever we call it, would be achieved by remembrance, the Yaad. सर्व धर्मान् परित्यज्य मामेकम् शरणं व्रज॥
बहानेबाज़ी को मर्ज करो और बेहद की वैराग्यवृत्ति को इमर्ज करो।

Post Fri May 11, 2018 5:23 pm

Posts: 379
Location: Panvel
Link with BKs: In Contact
हा! हम है शिव शक्ति भारत माता! है गोप गोपिया! चतुराई से भरपूर! वरदानों से भरपूर! शक्ति युक्त युक्ति युक्त! स्थूलवतन के त्रिकालदर्शी!प्यार और शक्ति से पालना करने वाले प्यार से भरपूर बच्चे| है तो वंडर की बात!

लेकिन नटशेल मैं दो ही बातें हैं! बाप और वर्से को याद करना है!
बहानेबाज़ी को मर्ज करो और बेहद की वैराग्यवृत्ति को इमर्ज करो।

Post Mon May 21, 2018 7:20 am

Posts: 179
Link with BKs: BK
Om Shanti

Dear Divine Sisters and Brothers

As per brother Yayati, it is a nice play of “words”. OK Let us enjoy it.

But for me it is dance of knowledge, which is not possible without words and the ocean of knowledge dances with beautiful words. Only a sensible soul can enjoy the dance of knowledge who understands different meanings of the same word in different context.

We are discussing on the question “What is soul?” OR “What am I?”

My knowledgeable brother mbbhatji has posted his beautiful thoughts with the same subject “what am I?” in 2012 with most suitable word “entity” for soul. Referhttp://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/journey-from-beginning-part-one-t1170.html

THIS entity(I) is powerful than the organs. It owns the organs.

Where this entity(I) is located and how would it be? Definitely I must be situated inside my body. Hence inside every physical body, there is a nonphysical (also called as Meta physical) entity that is the owner of that physical body. Physical body is made from the five elements of nature. But the entity(I) that owns the body, uses the body is beyond the nature.

Hence I am the entity that sees through eyes, hears through ears, talk through mouth, experience through the body.

Therefore the chaitanya entity soul has mind, intellect and resolves in itself.


All my BK Sisters and Brothers may refer the English book “ The nature of consciousness “ the copy of the paper presented by BK Jagdish Chander Hassija at the IV International Symposium on Science and Consciousness at Mexico, on 4th to 8th January, 1994 . In this book our most respected brother has written
According to Rajyog school or system, the self is an indivisible, irreducible, persistent or permanent person. It is a point of consciousness which cannot be split, for it is a single and simple entity, not made of any parts. It is one whole.



Now my sisters and brothers are requested to think of these words: - indivisible, irreducible, persistent.

Indivisible – unable to be divided (inseparable, indecomposable, impartible, अभाज्य /अविभाज्य)
You may understand that it is indivisible object. It cannot be indivisible energy. The word is not suitable for any type of energy.

Irreducible – not able to be reduced, अलघुकरणीय
The word irreducible means also for an object whose size cannot be reduced. The word is not suitable for energy as it has no size.

We also use the words in hindi ajar, amar, avinashi (अजर, अमर, अविनाशी ) for soul.
अजर - जिसको जरा यानि बृद्धावस्था न हो - अर्थात जैसे शरीर का अबस्था में परिबर्तन होती बाल्य, किशोर , युवा, बृद्ध / जरा ऐसी आत्मा की बृद्धावस्था नहीं होती - अगर आत्मा एक शक्ति होती, तो अजर कहने की अब्श्य्कता न होती, न ही यह शब्द किसी शक्ति के लिए प्रजुज्य I

अमर - जिसका मृत्यु न हो – never dying - अगर आत्मा एक शक्ति होती, तो अमर कहने की भी अब्श्य्कता न होती न ही यह शब्द किसी शक्ति के लिए प्रजुज्य I

Persistent / never ending / indestructible / eternal / अविनाशी
Yes – Energy neither can be created nor can be destroyed. But should we say soul is energy (शक्ति) for this single reason?

सार रूप में मेरा यही कहना है - अगर प्यारे बाबा के "वस्तु" शब्द को स्थूल समझ कर न बोले तो entity / (सत्ता) शब्द प्रयोग कर सकते लेकिन आत्मा एक “शक्ति” / Energy कहना ईश्वरीय ज्ञान में गलत ही होगा।

अगर हम आत्मा को एक शक्ति कहेँ - तो शक्ति की परिभाषा को बदलना होगा I

बिज्ञान में कार्य करने की क्षमता को “शक्ति” कहते और आद्यत्मिक्ता में भी आत्मा राजयोग के द्वारा अष्ट शक्तियों की प्राप्त करती ताकि प्रत्येक कार्य को सही बिधि से कर सके अर्थात यहाँ भी वह अष्ट शक्तियां कार्य करने की क्षमता ही हैं I

If we say soul is energy, then we have to change the definition of “energy”. Since it is ability to perform work, it is a property / characteristic of a system / source. It has no existence without a source.

Even light (electromagnetic radiation) travels in wave form as well as ray / particle form / photons, still it is a big question that whether the existence of light is possible without a luminous object as source? http://maggiesscienceconnection.weebly.com/dual-nature-of-light.html

Regards
BK Atulya

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