Board index BK Section (BKs & New BK students only please) Murli Points Discussion Atma kya hen? ek shakti ya ek bastu?

Atma kya hen? ek shakti ya ek bastu?


Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:28 pm

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acc01775 wrote:

आज मुरली dt.(27/04/2018) की हेड लाइन

मीठे बच्चे - लक्ष्य सोप से आत्मा रूपी वस्त्र को साफ करो


बस्त्र को आप क्या कहेंगे ? बस्तु या शक्ति ?

71) There is a murli point saying - kayi kapdey itney puraane/gandey hain jab baap satkaa lagaathey hain toh phat jaathey hain = some clothes/souls are too dirty that when father hits them during washing, they break.

Do souls break like objects?

72) And, in the above murli point (27-4-2018) , the lakshy/lux is said as soap .
Lakshy means Aim. Is Aim being used as an object/soap here?
So, can it be said soul is being cleaned physically? Because the cleaning agent is given the title soap(an object).

73) Many times Baba says - buddhi roopi viman or pyer. = Intellectual Aeroplane or intellectual legs.
Baba says you can do syer/tour of three worlds using buddhi roopi viman.
Does it imply intellect is to be considered here as an object?

74) In the previous post, dear soul brother Atulyaji quoted a murli point which says - knowledge is like oil. Now, oil is object. Should we say knowledge is also object?
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:26 pm

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And Baba has clarified that soul is not like flame (आग) of diwa.

75) Guess why? The reason is simple.
In lowkik Scripture, it is said God is more powerful/hot than thousands of sun. So, to clarify that Baba is saying so.
So, Baba is NOT discriminating between ENERGY and OBJECT here.
On the contrary our supreme teacher has never given any example of any form of energy like electricity, heat energy, solar energy, gravitational potential energy, kinetic energy, light energy, magnetic energy etc.

76) Shivbaba speaks in such a language/tone so that innocent mothers and kanyas who are not well educated too can understand.
So, Baba will not make his words sophisticated. If he starts speaking in such a way, taste and purpose of murli will be lost. Just translate magnetic energy, chemical energy, etc to hindi and see how would we feel murli.

Shivbaba is master of masters. He performs dance of knowledge. So, HE even does not (need to) follow even grammar, etc in the murli. He uses varieties of language words.
That is why murli is jaadoo/magic.

77)Moreover, Shivbaba is DILAA_RAAM(lord of hearts), not DEEMAAG_RAAM(lord of intellects).

Soul can never be like the fragrance of a flower, which I listen many times from our sisters that you can only feel the soul as the fragrance of a flower.

78) I am not aware of this. In this case, it is wrong. I give you full vote to you. But, in one of my experience.....

My experience:- I had been in a gathering at Madhuban/Mount Abu for attending classes for MSc (Value based education).
During that time the sister on stage used to mention different types of thoughts with examples.
When she asked an example for negative thought, I replied -" to consider self as body is a negative thought". But, she replied No.! She said it is (mostly) neutral thought.

We know body consciousness is the seed for all negatives, but still she is not willng to accept it as a negative thought.

Then I felt- nowadays we bksk prepare syllabus to lowkik people, so they might have made different classification of thoughts.
Usually Baba says only 4 types of thoughts- positive, negative, waste and ordinary.
But, our RERF (Rajayoga education and Research Foundation) have classified as 6 types of thoughts-(mostly) toxic, negative, neutral, positive, waste and I forgot the other one.

So, our gyan will take many dimensions due to expansion of service. Sometimes some small error may happen. You are trying to correct , but others may not understand. Drama goes like that.

[79) We cannot expect everyone and everything to be accurate. Govt permits a person to practice if he has passing marks which is 35℅(in some cases 50℅) ! Wonderful, is it not.
So, some BKs nay not be willing to accept your/our points even if they are right.
So, we need to think whether they have understood the knowledge at least to 50℅.
Of course, you are trying to rectify, I appreciate the effort. All the best.]

What I mean to say from the beginning that soul is the source of power / energy. But can never be energy itself.

80) True. Now, which words are close to the truth(source of power) - just OBJECT or just ENERGY?

So, we will have to use an additional word least in explaining. Debate between just object and energy has no meaning.

The topic should have been - to what extent soul is object and to what extent soul is energy.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:31 pm

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81) In the yagya history, we hear that - in the beginning, Shivbaba through Brahma had uttered the words- "Nijaananda swaroopam Shivohum2, gyaan swaroopam Shivohum2, prakaash swaroopam Shivohum2." = I am ever blissful, I am Shiv, I am Shiv. I am knowledgeful, I am Shiv, I am Shiv. I am embodiment of light, I am Shiv, I am Shiv."

But, Baba has not said -" I am an object. I am Shiv, I am Shiv. "

All these indicate power/virtues, is it not.

Many times in murli, Baba says- " I am ocean of knowledge, purifier, ocean of bliss, etc, . etc".

82) A very important Point. We bks say meaning of Shiv is -
" kalyankari mangalkari and Subhkari " = benefactor, auspicious, prosperous, etc.

We bks also say Shiv is name of God .
Now- 'kalyankari mangalkari and shubhakari' are related to but power/virtues, right?
So, it directly implies- Shiv is name of power and virtues, not based on object!*


* 83) - Word SHIV has two meanongs- one based on VIRTUE/power, the other based on FORM/object.
The former has meaning as - BENEFACTOR, the latter has the meaning INCORPOREAL (one who has nothing) .

84) Now- INCORPOREAL - not only God, all the souls qualify .

But, BENEFACTOR - only God qualifies.

---So, title/name SHIV appears to be more inclined to VIRTUE/power than FORM/object. So, it implies God is more a power than the object!

---But, if argued in other way - it is only Shiv who practically remains incorporeal through out the kalpa.
All the rest get influenced by corporeal things at one or other point of time.

So, I believe the word object and energy/power have almost same importance while giving introduction of soul or God.

85) Baba says - Initially let them be taught in simpler ways. Deep matters are taught in the end.

baap hai gyaan kaa saagar. Uskaa roop bhee samjhaayaa hai kitnaa sookshm hai. Vah to ling kah dete hain. Pehle2 to baap kaa parichay denaa hai. BHAL VAV JYOTILIRLINGAM HEE SAMJHE. DEEP baathey BAAD MEIN samjhaanee hotee hai. Phir poochnaa hai aatmaa kaa roop kyaa hai. yeh to kahte hain bhrukuti ke beech mein chamaktaa hai ajab sitaaraa. to zaroor chotee hee hogi. badaa ling to yahaan baith bhee na sake. fodaa nikal aaye.

Father is ocean of knowledge. His form is also taught; how subtle it is. They say it is ling. First give introduction of Father. LET THEM CONSIDER AS JYOTIRLINGAM ITSELF(!). DEEP MATTERS ARE TAUGHT LATER. It is said, shining star on forehead. So, definitely it would be small. Big ling will not sit here (SM 7/9/1977- Pg 2)


So, even if some Bk sister or brothers use any words, it should be OK. They can be taught deep matters later, like we are still learning.

But, dear soul brother Atulyaji, I appreciate your effort and thank you for pointing the importance of word OBJECT here which also increased my level of churning.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Tue May 01, 2018 7:31 am

Posts: 179
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Om Shanti

Dear Divine Brother Yayatiji,

Yes, I agree to your point
Each object HAS mass and energy.


And Object takes a three dimensional space how small it may be.

But I do not agree to your earlier post saying
Each object (वस्तु) has mass and hence energy (ऊर्जा).


The meaning being object is energy. (No difference between object and energy)

You write
“Atma HAS energy that can manifest through human actions.


Yes I agree 100%. Atma has energy OR Soul is source of energy.

All the live cells of the body die within 2 hours after the soul leaves the body, which proves that not only action but also the life of each cell of body depends on the energy of the soul.

But the soul is not a packet of energies, because it takes a three dimensional space.

Please Refer Murli Dt.(07 /07/2017 ) प्यारे बाबा ने कहा है
ऊपर में निराकार आत्माओं का झाड़ है। कितनी स्पेस लेते होंगे। बहुत थोड़ी होगी।


अर्थात आत्मा, चाहे कितना भी छोटी क्यों न हो, आत्मा का कुछ आकर (Size) है I क्या ‘शक्ति’ के लिए छोटी या बड़ी (size) कहना उचित लगता है ?

The definition of object:- which has a shape / which takes a 3 dimensional space.

It is like a battery. The battery stores energy in a chemical way. But electricity is also involved, so it is said battery stores electro chemical energy. Battery cannot be called as energy itself.

Again I agree to your point
The infinitesimally small object can carry energy in different ways.”


So the soul is the infinitesimally small object which receives energy (शक्ति) from the supreme soul and stores, use, transmit energy in different ways.

You write
Compare the lights from the sun and moon with different heat properties. Similarly different would be properties of the souls, with different tamo-rajo-sat to showcase differently evident human actions.”


Yes, the sun is the source of heat energy, which radiates heat to warm us up in planet earth.
The sun is a luminous object. (Source of energy, but not Energy itself)

Yes you are correct to say that the property / energy of the soul shall be different as per its stage sato / rajo / tamo. But you know very well that the size of the soul remains the same irrespective of the energy it carries.

So just re-think my dear brother it should be object, because energy / ability to perform work differs soul to soul and in different stages of soul, but its size remain constant.

Energy has no size. But if somebody says yes it has, then the size of soul should vary after losing power or increase after receiving power. And the size of the supreme soul should be the largest.

Yours brother
BK Atulya

Post Wed May 02, 2018 2:02 am

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The potential energy would differ for each soul to act with zest उमंग-उत्साह in right way needing efforts-पुरुषार्थ.

Yes, E=mc-Square tells energy and mass are directly proportional. However speed to travel at will to act would make the souls differently energized. Rust of tamo-rajo bondage in the surrounding would differentiate the energy of the souls limiting the ability to act in Sat-सत way. The bondage would differ in each time part of the cycle Yug - युग.
The effort to come out of bondage उडती कला and ability to help others to get liberated नयनहीन को मार्ग दिखाना would differ as per the potential energy attained through remembrance याद by each soul.

The aim-object is to be powerful शक्तिशाली to follow father, The Supreme Soul सर्वशक्तिमान, the liberator.
बहानेबाज़ी को मर्ज करो और बेहद की वैराग्यवृत्ति को इमर्ज करो।

Post Wed May 02, 2018 10:51 am

Posts: 179
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Om Shanti

Dear Divine brother mbbhatji,

I would like to repeat my statement that this topic “whether soul is object or energy?” has no value if we understand any object is energy.

I understand the definition of object (वस्तु) to be -:- which has a shape / which takes a 3 dimensional space.

And the definition of energy (शक्ति) to be :- ability to perform work

As per my understanding - the meaning of both words is completely different than each other and any object can never be called as energy itself. When a matter / object is converted to energy, it is no longer remain as that matter / object.

I feel that your understanding is different. You write on 10/03/2015
“Any matter can be converted into energy. So- every physical object in the world is both an object as well as energy.”


You write on 23/04/2018
Everything is object/quantity and energy/quality. Without one, the other one has no use. Both are so closely related. So, there is no need to over discriminate them.


Please come out of the topic “soul” for some time and answer as a common man.

Q1. Do you still say that every physical object in the world is both an object as well as energy?

Q2. If your answer is “Yes”, then please define object (वस्तु) and energy (शक्ति) as per your understanding.

Now coming to the topic “soul”

Q3. Should we take the above definition of object (वस्तु) and energy (शक्ति) for discussion regarding soul or any other definition is required. Please write.

I repeat there can never be a discussion with an understanding object is energy.

Your suggestion The topic should have been - to what extent soul is object and to what extent soul is energy.

Q4. Please answer to your suggested topic:- soul is 25% object 75 % energy OR 75% object 25% energy OR 50% object and 50% energy?

I believe my brother to be a gyani soul who gives importance to the subject GOD FATHERLY knowledge (परमात्म ज्ञान), who will not give a comment like what makes a difference if soul is object or energy. After all you are to remember the almighty Shiv Baba and purify yourself.

A soul giving more priority to the No-1 subject – Yog shall definitely say like that. But I believe that a real seeker of knowledge (nectar), shall not say like that. This is true knowledge. The ocean of knowledge says that it is like sword. It is so sharp that it can never be “Yes” as well as “No”. I never say at any time that our supreme teacher says sometimes like this for the same thing and some other time the other for the same thing. I feel that it will defame the supreme teacher. My supreme teacher is accurate to each word even accurate to each letter of the word whether we soul understand to the right context or not.

As per my experience, 98 % bk souls understand soul as energy, who do not accept the soul to be object (वस्तु) or conscious / spiritual object / चेतन बस्तु. Only 1% BK soul accepts soul to be object (वस्तु) like me who do not accept soul to be energy (शक्ति) / चेतन शक्ति. And rest 1% soul say soul to be energy as well as object like you.

As far as knowledge is concern, in my opinion it is always better to be in one side. However it is up to you soul how you understand the thing.

OK. Waiting for your reply to the point for the 4 questions.

Yours brother
BK Atulya

Post Wed May 02, 2018 5:57 pm

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# Post No. 06/04:-

86) Dear Brother,

An object should have both mass and size. But, you are discussing only about size.
Without discussing mass, how can we use the term object fully?
So, kindly discuss about mass of the soul - if you are so much attached to the term OBJECT.

87) You did not reply about jyotibindu. Should we use that word? Yes or No? If yes , is the word jyotibindu related only to object?

88)So, to many more points you did not reply. I once again request (or summarise) to put your opinion on at least to the points - 40, 41, 43, 44, 82, 84 and 92.

89) A soul can move itself from one body and enter into another body. No one pushes/forces it.
Then what is wrong in saying- "A soul is basically energy too"?*

90) I will reply to your four questions once again within couple of days. I have already replied to most of them, but will give further clarifications. Thank you and Baba

*91) - Physical objects even though have capacity to attract other objects, cannot move by themselves. They need external force to move. Of course, any object can act as an external force to other objects, but, not for self. But, a soul can move by itself.

92) So, summarising, practically, a soul is energy in six/many ways:-
a)Physically it can move itself, from one place to another without need of any external force.
b) It has mind and intellects as its own permanent, eternal and indivisible faculties/powers. So, it has these as default powers WITHIN.

c) It stores spiritual energy which varies as per its sanskaar.
( But, in God it is constant.)

d) Usually, in an object, the energy stored depends upon the size. More the size, more the capacity to store.
But, in a soul size is fixed.
This indicates the energy property of a soul is not dependent on its object property(mass and size).
So, the energy aspect/property of a soul gets same importance as that of the object aspect/property, is it not.

e) Soul is called as jyotibindu (point of light ). So, soul is an object which is filled by only spiritual light.
So, it is an object full of just (spiritual) energy!- right?.
The energy in it may vary, but except energy, there is no other material in it, right? (In a battery, we have other materials inside, and energy stored depends upon the nature of those materials).
[An object should have both size and mass. Now, the mass of a soul would be purely spiritual, is it not. So, that mass is nothing but energy.

Due to all these, I believe soul is both object and energy together].

f) If we take the case of gravitational potential, then this is another way of a soul influencing the other. Just by the potential inside (the stored spiritual energy), automatically service happens. Baba ways - chadhti kalaa terey bhaaney sarv kaa bhalaa = when you rise, others too get benefited.

g) Any object can be converted into energy and give versa.(I had said this in point no. 12) -
E = mc square.
(But, this will not hold good in spirituality - because soul is indestructible, indivisible, and physically unchanging.
Moreover, we are yet not sure what is mass of a soul).
So, kindly ignore this.

92) Dear Atulyaji, It seems that you are interested to discuss only 91c and 91g.

I kindly request you consider other points.

Post Sat May 05, 2018 2:59 am

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# Post No. 06/05:-

acc01775 wrote:

I would like to repeat my statement that this topic “whether soul is object or energy?” has no value if we understand any object is energy.[/b]

94) Already clarified. Consider other points in 91.

I understand the definition of object (वस्तु) to be -:- which has a shape / which takes a 3 dimensional space.

95) Not enough. An object should have mass too.*

Please come out of the topic “soul” for some time and answer as a common man.

Q1. Do you still say that every physical object in the world is both an object as well as energy?

96) Scientifically It is not wrong. In that view(common scientific view) , I had said object can also be considered as energy.

If you ask a common man whether earth is flat or sphere, he may say it is flat. Even today, many would be in that thinking.

If we ask to common people, whether sun is energy or object, some people may say - it is energy. Do you think they know the nuclear fusion taking place there?

I repeat there can never be a discussion with an understanding object is energy

97) It is better to onsider other points, too , no need to stick to one point. Already said. Kindly refer to point. No. 88

Your suggestion The topic should have been - to what extent soul is object and to what extent soul is energy.

Q4. Please answer to your suggested topic:- soul is 25% object 75 % energy OR 75% object 25% energy OR 50% object and 50% energy?

98) My answer is - soul is combination of object and energy. They cannot be separated.

We know soul consists of mind, intellect and sanskaar. Can you mention percentage of each?

The ocean of knowledge says that it is like sword. It is so sharp that it can never be “Yes” as well as “No”. I never say at any time that our supreme teacher says sometimes like this for the same thing and some other time the other for the same thing. I feel that it will defame the supreme teacher.......

99) Shivbaba is master or supreme Surgeon. He speaks as per drama and the pulse of the children/patients.

Hundreds of examples can be given where you cannot stand at one side. -Post No.95 - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1167&p=12324&hilit=Radha#p12324

-Post no. 99- viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1167&p=12324&hilit=Radha#p12335

SHIV Baba would not get defamed since he is everpure, detached and loves everyone.
BTW, Baba says - it is God who is defamed most in drama, next the chariot- right?
That is the irony dear.

My supreme teacher is accurate to each word even accurate to each letter of the word whether we soul understand to the right context or not.


]As far as knowledge is concern, in my opinion it is always better to be in one side. However it is up to you soul how you understand the thing.

100) If we stand at one side, we would be like brittle, not flexible.
If you ask questions like - Why does God incarnate- to play his role on drama or to purify the children, or to teach Rajayoga, or to give fruit of bhakti? - Would you like to select only one option as the answer and leave the rest?
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Sat May 05, 2018 10:26 am

Posts: 379
Location: Panvel
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Does soul have materialistic limits or is it spiritual infinitesimally small all pervading entity? We cannot define some things. Let us not say thing is object here. Some things cannot be grasped in fist they will flow away like water or sand.

It's mirage to the atheist. How can we define it then? For believer it's the controller of the body, mind, maybe all organs. Can't be seen like the driver of the car, it's more like wind then. Has varying energy embedded within.

The question of स्थूल vs सूक्ष्म has remained unresolved for many enlightened souls. The साकार vs निराकार duality is another issue. दृश्य - अदृश्य, सगुण - निर्गुण, व्यक्त - अव्यक्त, शून्य - पूर्ण natures of soul duality are similar examples.
बहानेबाज़ी को मर्ज करो और बेहद की वैराग्यवृत्ति को इमर्ज करो।

Post Tue May 08, 2018 8:42 am

Posts: 179
Link with BKs: BK
Om Shanti

Dear Divine brother mbbhatji,

Q1. Do you still say that every physical object in the world is both an object as well as energy?
A1. 96) Scientifically It is not wrong. In that view (common scientific view) , I had said object can also be considered as energy.


I do not understand your answer.

”Scientifically it is not wrong” – it indicates that your answer is “YES” Every physical object in the world is both an object as well as energy.

“I had said object can also be considered as energy.” This new statement is completely different than the statement as stated on dt.10.03.2015 in this topic. Which indicates the answer to be “No” object is not energy but it can be considered as energy.

Q2. Please define object (वस्तु) and energy (शक्ति) as per your understanding
A2. As I understand the answer to be Object - which has a shape / which takes a 3 dimensional space. And which has mass.


It will be better if you can provide some reference for this definition of object.

Please write the definition of “Energy” as per your understanding.

Q3. Should we take the above definition of object (वस्तु) and energy (शक्ति) for discussion regarding soul or any other definition is required. Please write.


Not answered.

Brother Mbbhat writes The topic should have been - to what extent soul is object and to what extent soul is energy.
Q4. Please answer to your suggested topic:- soul is 25% object 75 % energy OR 75% object 25% energy OR 50% object and 50% energy?
A4. My answer is - soul is combination of object and energy. They cannot be separated.


The answer is not appropriate to your suggested topic name.

Yours brother
BK Atulya

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