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Suggestion a post: Let intellectual BKs ask questions ...


VisionOfSelf User avatar
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Suggestion from paramsingh in his post (see last paragraph): Let intellectual BKs ask questions to BapDada directly.

Original topic here: topic771.html


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VisionOfSelf wrote:
Think about this --- An 80 year old man in the first scene of a movie. The movie only ran for 1 minute but you are seeing an 80 year old man. Now through some scientific method, we can establish that the man is indeed 80 years old. But it is also true that the movie has only run for 1 minute!!! Yes?

Isn't this essentially the 'Kalpa Loop Theory'? An old one which has been floating round the BK world since at least the early 80s but was never given any credence or degree of acceptance.

The idea is that time, space evolution etc carry on just as the scientists say it does ... but that BK souls incarnate at one point, travel along it for 5,000 years, and then at the Confluence Age magically loop back in time to the same point 5,000 years ago ... which then repeats ad infinitum. In this model, time and space existed before the BK Kalpa and continues on after the BK Kalpa.

I have no idea how it might work, and it is completely "magical", but this does do away with the need for not just light to reverse but for all atoms in the universe to go back to their starting point too.

Other related problems to the reversing light are, e.g. the flag on the moon and all the junk floating around in outer space. (If every Kalpa you fire thousands of tonnes of metals into space, current disappear way past Jupiter etc, you are soon going to run out of them on Earth, or fill up space, unless they return to exactly the same place and forum for the start of the next Kalpa, i.e. it is not just earth which needs to be returned to its pristine state but the entire cosmos/universe. How is a nuclear war going to do that?)

No one believes in The Knowledge *because* of the Cycle. Most in the West believe *despite* the Cycle. Believing in the Cycle is a sort of talisman or an 'article of faith' to prove you believe in Baba and have surrendered your intellect. There are scientific and engineering souls within the BKWSU, has no one ever produced a scientific theory of how the Cycle works, and done the mathematics to prove it?

I suspect the BK leaders are just working to the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" school of thought. If people and donations are still being sucked in, why change the Knowledge.

What I don't understand is why they don't allow intelligent people to sit and question BapDada about all this stuff instead of surrounding him with the usual uneducated individuals playing the blind faith game?
As soon as souls indulge in vice, they experience bad omens. Their intellect is locked up. This is an incognito, severe punishment. Then such souls would never be able to say, "God says that lust is the greatest enemy". SM 2003/09/02


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Agree in full with every paragraph in that post, paramsingh.

In fact in 1978 or 79, I made an appointment with Dadi Janki and Jayanti and presented that "kalpa loop" theory to her,(which in my youthful exuberance I thought I had originated but maybe not. Yes, I like that nice concise name for it, never got so far as to name it ) I even had all kinds of resolutions for inherent problems like how the ‘transition’ of advance party souls get back to the start of the loop, and others.

After a half hour of discussion which her part consisted of mainly that remembering the baba was most important thing etc, i could see not only that she didn’t understand it, she didn’t care to understand it, and was reassessing her opinion of me with every passing second. Can still remember the look on her face, you should seen it - a mixture of :( and :shock: and :roll:

And, as for your last paragraph about allowing more intelligent questions directly to bapdada, I sat in once on a small gathering around that same time, only about 30 people in the small hall next to the tower peace. Q& A with B&D was the order of the evening. I can tell you that the answers for any tricky questions were along the lines of ”that is of no concern” or "remember your task of completion/purification/ remembrance/service” or ”scientists are playing their part, you have to fulfil your part” etc etc

Off-topic: has anyone noticed the switch of emphasis from the 70’s till now regarding Golden Age being said to be powered by nuclear technology to nowadays it going to be being powered by solar and other kinds of safe indisputable sources (now they are feasible) ? Maybe if fusion technology is developed it’ll go back to being nuclear! Shades of Orwellian newspeak, doublethink, memoryhole and thoughtcrimes.!!


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Not just intellectual BKs, but also proper intellectuals. Does anyone else tire of the usual "leader of the troops" speeches or "daddy" talk?


I'd also add a psychotherapist to that list, to ask him why he might consider himself to be God and why he does not feel any remorse for all that has been done in his name (even just within the BK family ... if not the middle ages).

We'd all learn much more of his mind if he or it was challenged by someone who did not supplicate themselves, or adore him.

Those answers are easy deflections for which it does not take a God nor even a guru to pass off. It is said Lekhraj Kripalani worked through all his psychology by himself but do we know that? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and, God or not, it is part of growing up to ask questions and get answers.

For me, it is a shame he does not speak in more mature and down to earth manner realistically about his past.
As soon as souls indulge in vice, they experience bad omens. Their intellect is locked up. This is an incognito, severe punishment. Then such souls would never be able to say, "God says that lust is the greatest enemy". SM 2003/09/02


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For whom should we ask the questions to Bapdada? Is it for those who need just criticisms?

Even though today even the science believes in soul, and major cause for even physical disease is thoughts, what treatment is there is medical science to cure these?

So- even if this is explained, will such people believe in knowledge?

And, we do not need such people who need such proof. Because we believe those who had been deities in last kalpa only will accept knowledge now. so- if one has that sanskaar, that is the only one that is going to help us. Our faith is mainly on that. That is both sufficient and necessary condition for us.

Baba says- if someone aks you about animals, etc- tell them- first put effort to become pure. When there is need of that, Baba will tell.
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I think- science cannot restore entropy. Only nature can do. why so powerful science cannot bring real benefit?


Now- what science proves- is it a real proof?:- today a person gets nobel prize for some invention. tomorrow another person disproves it and again gets nobel prize.

What proof science has given is on many assumptions:- for example, how correct the carbon 14 dating is? What is the guaranatee that the half life period of carbon 14 is remains constant? If it could have changed, then their calculations have no meaning at all, since that is the one on whose the whole calculation depends.!*

Baba says- Gold in golden age will be lighter than feather. (Else wearing it (crown) is a burden). And many things about heaven - the aeroplanes in heaven will be full proof, but will be very simple to manufacture. {Who will believe this? Will today's science believe? Is there any way to find out this by science? - impossible, is it not?}**

Nature is servant there.

Now- how can thought affect body? Is not that magic? Yes. It can cure diseases, bring diseases. When thought has so much power on nature, the nature in heaven will be different. So- how can science even think of million of years, when it is based/dependent on assumptions of the things which are seen just for few hundred years.


[* - i have heard this- The iron pillar kept openly in some old monuments- has not picked up any rust even after thousand years, but today's iron gets rust. Why?

What was the technology at that time that could produce such a quality of iron, which todays technology cannot produce?]


** - there are many things which science cannot explain. It does not prove that science is wrong. We say it is beyond scope of science.

Similarly, it is beyond the role of Shivbaba in drama to speak now. He will speak as per drama.

Also- God is called as not only ocean of knowledge, but also free from ego. So- he will speak only those which are useful to children and not to show off himself. He is praised as Purifier. So- he will not have any intention to prove himself. And, when all are his children, he will not do so.

A child does not feel father by the literal or physical things. It is by relation. Similarly, if anyone feels himself as child of God, he will realize god. There is no need to believe in BK philosophy. But, I personally feel if anyone has strong feeling that, i am child of God, he will be guided by god towards BKWSU.

Else, for those who suggest to ask questions to Bapdada, - What aim they have in their life? It is unfortunate that- they neither can enjoy their life, nor can be satisfied in others when they enjoy.

How many in this world can say openly- We all are children of god?

[But, dear Baba, they are also playing their role perfectly. I am just writing these simply. Let them just ignore my writings, is it not?]
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Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.


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What proof science has given is on many assumptions:- for example, how correct the carbon 14 dating is? What is the guaranatee that the half life period of carbon 14 is remains constant? If it could have changed, then their calculations have no meaning at all, since that is the one on whose the whole calculation depends.!*
Then please, go ahead and show it. You too can win a Nobel prize!! Otherwise anyone can dispute anything or claim anything...

All scientific knowledge is a work in progress, and what is "known" is according to what has been shown up to that point in time.

Carbon 14 decay was tested against various other 'knowns' - against objects whose age was known by other means, and shown to be reliable within a small margin of error. It works well for certain time frames, but is not reliable for things less than 600 years or over (I think) 600, 000 years.

For those shorter and longer times, other methods are used - you are capable of googling if you really wish to understand it...

Re; the iron pillar - I have heard of it, it is an interesting phenomenon. That science does not yet have an explanation does not mean there is none nor will there ever be any explanation. I haven't read up on it but will try to do so.

This argument is like a person taunting someone else working on a complex jigsaw puzzle, expecting them to put it all together in one go "look- you don't know what that piece is! Why haven't you filled in that section yet? Ha! You tried to put that piece in the wrong place".

But that taunter will gladly utilise the hospitals, technology, transport, all around him every day which is built on the picture built up by the science jigsaw puzzle.

There are many scientists who are profoundly religious and spiritual - just not the way you think those words imply.


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We are not interested in winning any noble prize.

Thank you for the information that- Carbon dating is not applicable for all the times.

When you are claiming- the age was known by other means, what are they? How accurate they are? And- how can you say till 600 000 yrs?

That itself shows the efficiency of the tool in measuring/calculating.
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We are karmayogis. We use what (hospital, etc) is available. We do not expect from them. We do not cry if it is not available.

Putting the thing at wrong place or right place- time only has to decide. Because no one lives till 5000 yrs, or 600 000 yrs. so- wait and see. When someone throws a wrong ball, I just became wall which made the ball to rebound. that is all. I just pointed the weakness there. So- better not to hurry or worry in these things.

We believe it is the same scientific technology that comes to heaven. We also believe that- when we do yoga, it gives vibrations to all. So- our belief is we are with all and everything, we take part for whole the kalpa.
Last edited by mbbhat on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.


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I am not intellectual, and wise, but I can only tell this much, that
the answer is given- it lays in the level of Purity, thoughts, actions, Sanskaras, we have, we do , we take with us. This also determines our roles, parts,our powers etc. Also the part of a stone in the universe. The other is Babas power of His Purity and His other powers. He is the director and the creator. The main actor and regisseur. The magician. It is all like a big puzzle, each Scene is a part of a puzzle, and that is also a part of another big puzzle, and so on....till it is a big big szene , you see from up above. So we, you can solve all this puzzles, riddle it, than you know it. Than you recognize your role, and the other things, around you, on earth, each ones part, and why the stone is there in the sky.....why he has that function, and not another one. The nature has its role, its part in this puzzle, each human soul has his part, each animal, each element has his fixed part, because it is like a big puzzle, and it comes all back on its right position, where the new cycle is waiting, where the new roles are waiting, when it is the time for the new begin of the cycle.
Its like you have a new puzzle, and someone else destroys the picture, and you have to find out things from it, solve it, put it back into the right position, on his place, than you see the picture again, new, a global picture. Than you know the meaning, and need not ask scientists. Than you see the picture of the whole universe, of the actors, why they cannot change, why you have to respect and appreciate each ones role, task, action, thought, intention, feeling, motive, power, time, because it is all from this big picturethis big,big Szeneor you can also say play. Baba says all in the murlis.

observer


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