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rajyoga can save women from getting raped.



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If, because they desire it, they cut a person with the same knife maliciously, that is a crime.
(and no, they are not 'helping' that person pay off karma, no matter what thought you use to calm your social conscience with!!)
If the knife is used skilfully by a surgeon to help a patient, despite any short-term pain caused it is no crime.

It is not that hard.
Desire in itself is no crime - and it only causes harm to the desirer if it is inappropriate or excessive or deluding.
Using a knife is not a crime if it is used appropriately.
Taking something is not a crime if it was freely given.
Even if it's freely given, it is a crime if there was deceit, misrepresentation or manipulation.

I feel - You yourself have rightly said here. As per our feelings, is the result and not what we do. So- where there is no emotions/instability, there is no crime. (First delusion itself is considering self as body instead of soul).

So- one may argue - if one kills another one without emotions, it is not a crime? It will not become crime if he has no interest in his life and he would not develop any emotions if the same thing/action is done on him or his family relatives and friends. But, first of all, without a strong emotion, one will not kill another, because such people always hide and put effort to protect themselves. But, spirituality means to sacrifice all emotions.

But sex is wrong, because it is not part of necessities in our life. They are just food, cloth and shelter. Else, why children are not permitted to see such things? The emotions are highest in sex, that is why the whole country gets upset when such crime (eg- rape ) happens, is it not?

Now- forget about the rape. Even if a boy just touches a female (or vice versa) without any desire for intercourse, without causing any harm, will not people get upset? Do you say such things can be legally permitted (if there is no slightest physical harm is done to other)?

So- can it be said- it is Ok to take drugs (which are likely to cause addiction and repentance in future) in limited way without excess?

Note that - initially British people gave alcohol freely to Indians, and then they became addicted.

More is explained here in topic No. 101 - below.

journey-from-beginning-part-two-t1172-100.html

In developed countries people are intelligent to handle these issues better than in other countries, hence law permits there such things.

But, spiritual law is the highest one which is going to come and people will realize it shortly. We will have to wait and see. Till there, the (society of hell) will say- sex giving freely or limitedly is not wrong, because it has its own limit.

So- the appropriate and right use of each and every organ is the teaching of Rajayoga. And, Baba says- consider yourself as soul and act. Automatically, your actions will be righteous. There will be no deceit, misrepresentation or manipulations, etc. That is the essence.

If you are interested, you may define code of conduct and explain how much to use each of our organs and when to use, with whom to use, etc, etc and give reasons and explanations and let us see how many religions and people and laws of different countries can understand or accept or certify them I think some scriptures explain such things and lot of debate is going on in the world.

We BKs are also in this path- how to improve our behaviour. but for us, it is in one sentence/word- become soul conscious.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.


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Yes I think improving moral and sanskars can help to achieve self control & to decide as per morality. But since sex is natural (gift or curse) for vitality, progress & to obtain strong & fittest children, Natural angles of any sexual act(even rape) is need to be understood. I think we mostly base social angles but ignore natural angles. I think opting social angles should also be subject to maintaining natural angles.


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1. where there is no emotions/instability, there is no crime. (First delusion itself is considering self as body instead of soul).


2. without a strong emotion, one will not kill another,

spirituality means to sacrifice all emotions.


3. But sex is wrong, because it is not part of necessities in our life.

[/quote]
1. A ''delusion" is a belief held despite superior evidence to the contrary. So in terms of what has superior evidence, soul (especially if defined as immortal, unchanging individual entity) is way down that list!

2. Sociopaths & psychopaths are partly defined by their lack of empathy and inability to feel compassion, having no regard at all for any effect their actions may have on others.

You say a girl's dress may invite attack the way an unlocked door may invite a thief, so the victims are responsible. Your unguarded nose invites a punch no doubt? Maybe nagas invite rabid nymphomaniacs to attack them while they parade? A black man should hide his skin colour so as not to provoke racist attacks from a white?

One of the dangers for the well-being of those on spiritual paths is that misapplication of 'detachment" and dealing with emotions. I ask, from what i read here mbbhat, from your need to find blame in the victim and seeming need to justifiy why a rapist is not completely responsible for his actions whether your very heart & soul (whether transitory or otherwise) is in danger.


3. Every time you see yourself in the mirror, or see any and every person, or animal, in the street, or bird in the sky, or on TV, or in the papers, - ask yourself, how did that living being come to be here?

If "sex is wrong" why is there male and female in your Sat Yuga? Deities surely are more deserving than worms to be asexual?


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1)Every time you see yourself in the mirror, or see any and every person, or animal, in the street, or bird in the sky, or on TV, or in the papers, - ask yourself, how did that living being come to be here?

2)If "sex is wrong" why is there male and female in your Sat Yuga? Deities surely are more deserving than worms to be asexual?


1)For us, it is drama. Very simple. give them respect and maintain your respect.

2)The drama is play of game and sorrow. Man's level goes much higher than animals as well as falls down much below than animals. This is drama. No animal will fight and take revenge like man and have so much disputes and conflicts.


Man is a social being. So- female's job is to take care at home, and man's job is work outside. This balance should be there. That is a good family. Even the society would be good and free from conflicts. But, due to vices, man's value came down than money/wealth, human values came down than material values, and hence man due to greed of money, status and wrong competition, then started paying lower respect to woman, because she has lesser physical power and does not earn like man. This is the cause for dis respect of woman and hence today new laws are coming for that for women reservation, etc. Else, there is no need for women to work. It just makes more unemployment for men and mechanical life.


Man's intellect is much higher than animals. Hence even in such conflict stages, he rules animals. But he suffers more than animals in hell.

If we have more food in stomach, but cannot digest, then it is definitely going to create problems. Similarly, since intellect of man is higher, if he loses control over it, that will be problem.


Actually, in deities, the sperm will go above to brain. It will be moving above. Even medical people agree that there is a way above for that. [There is a sloka in sanscrit as praise for Sri Narayan - saying oordhwa retassu. I for got the full sloka. ] So- sexual organs are not in fact sexual organs. We have misused it after Copper age.

An example- we can speak and read and write but animals cannot do so. This is a great advantage for us, since we can think more, learn more, explain more and teach more. But, at the same time, it is due to wrong talks, waste talks we spoil the relations.

So- would you like to say- In golden age , there should have been no speech and we should have become like animals/worms?

Then- better we should replace everything by something and then there would be no drama at all. Of course, some say so. but, BK philosophy says- drama is higher than God.


Now- is there need of dress in golden age? actually not. But, they will wear it. Because that is level of human souls. Is there need of golden palace or pushpak vimaan for deities? Is there need of King and Queen there? Actually not at all. Is there need of gold in temple for God or deities? not at all. But, that is our level.

Even in this world- our Rashtrapathi Bhavan has so many rooms, why? The point is- when people of Iron age have such a position, if heaven is higher than hell, then even in heaven, people should have higher comforts, is it not? Should they be foolish like worms or animals? People will laugh, is it not? Can the deities be worship worthy if they are asexual?

If a rich person has humility, it is greatness. If a poor person is humble, there is no much greatness. Similarly, while being in such a beautiful body, all comforts, if there is no sex, and they have virtues, and no attachment that is greatness. Is it not?

Murli point:- Pravruttimarg vaalon ko bahut sukh miltaa hai. = there is high level of happiness in paravruttimarg.

One more point:- Suppose say- if in heaven man is asexual, then what about in hell? How can there be downfall? How we will become impure? Then what would be importance of god?

So- drama is like that.

One person had asked me- "Why god could not do just one gender? There should have been just male of female. Then this sex would not have been there". I could not reply at that time. But, now it seems, if there would have been just one gender, man would have become homosexual much earlier and the society would have been very degraded and it would be difficult for weak males to work with other males. Males would have raped males.

Why there are so many religions in human beings? If man is asexual, and has no power to speak, etc. then can you imagine the present world?

So- it is drama.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.


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2. Sociopaths & psychopaths are partly defined by their lack of empathy and inability to feel compassion, having no regard at all for any effect their actions may have on others.

That is rare case. Let us take general cases.

But even then - it has been proved that- may mental illness people have been cured by kind people. So- internally there may be emotions in them to some level. Like children also sometimes do not respond to us (or respond strangely or differently), because they do not understand what to do and their level of intellect is lower, hence they do not get upset like us (do not react).

When a person has lost all hopes, he will not react like other people who are believed to be normal by the society. It does not mean they internally do not understand. But it means they do not follow you because they do not have faith in you and are ready to face any outcomes or problems since they already have faced many such things and are determined to a great extent.

You say a girl's dress may invite attack the way an unlocked door may invite a thief, so the victims are responsible. Your unguarded nose invites a punch no doubt? Maybe nagas invite rabid nymphomaniacs to attack them while they parade? A black man should hide his skin colour so as not to provoke racist attacks from a white?

I just gave an example to you to make something clear. Sometimes it may not fully fit, but it will have some value. You may absorb so much from it if you like/can*.

One of the dangers for the well-being of those on spiritual paths is that misapplication of 'detachment" and dealing with emotions. I ask, from what i read here mbbhat, from your need to find blame in the victim and seeming need to justifiy why a rapist is not completely responsible for his actions whether your very heart & soul (whether transitory or otherwise) is in danger.

i think- I have not said- "thief is not fully responsible". I agree/say thief is fully responsible or accountable for his mistake. But, the cause for victim's suffer are both. The victim is also accountable for the incident. Do you say- the police people should find and catch thief irrespective of whether people keep the doors locked or not?

During winter season, we wear thick cloths. Do you expect - even during that time, any cloth should not hurt our health? So- we should also take necessary precautions, is it not?

Otherwise- there is a saying- if you build a house near sea shore and fear for the sea waves? - the same condition applies here.

So- we should be aware of the sinful society and take care ourselves. We should not burden police extra, is it not? We know that most men are like monkeys. So- should we show them the groundnuts in our hand?

So- each one is accounted for his mistake.

When we go to different country, we adopt ourselves to that law, is it not? similarly, in what culture, society we live, we should follow that, right?

Similarly- we should try to adopt good behaviour as much as possible. Then only we get more right to justify ourselves.

Otherwise, man becomes like an animal and then loses right over demand to protection from law. Sorry- sometimes I use the extreme words to make some points clear.

* - That is why Baba says- Is paap ki duniyaa se le chalo kaheen door= Oh God, take me away from this sinful world.

There is no solution , is it not?
Last edited by mbbhat on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.


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Om Shanti

Thank you mbbhat.
The message has enlightened me in understanding the issue in its spiritual perspective and its applicability in the present day KALIYUG (Rakshasa Rule).


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the police people should find and catch thief irrespective of whether people keep the doors locked or not?
Yes they should and they do.
A pickpocket or a house burglar may be helped by an unlocked house or unzipped pocket, and all these other cases you mention mbhat - the crime is ""committed" - someone DOES it - It is a crime of commission, not ommission.

Consider a shopkeeper who suspects one of his staff is stealing, so he sets a temptation and watches. If he sees the staff member fall for it, he has caught him and sacks him. If not, he is wrong, he does not sack the staff member and turns his attention elsewhere, but will still put better security in place if he is wise, given what he has learnt.

I agree one should not tempt fate in a dangerous world, it may even be foolish to be careless, but the person who has had their pocket picked, their house burgled, or been raped, did not in any way cause the criminal to commit the act. The criminal seeks opportunity and is personally responsible (unless insane).

The "bad karma" may be that the parents did not teach the child to be more careful or less trusting, so is that the child's fault? Why would the child's suffering be more than the parents'.

Draw a long bow if you must, and you can agree with yourself about the "mysteries" of deep karma philosophy, but that is all in your head only.

Even "baba's canopy of protection" does not prevent crimes against brahmins, who've experienced rape, murder, assault, theft, molestation etc at the hands of others, with some of the perpetrators of such serious crimes being BKs too.

It is simple. A verse in the dhammapadda says that even a child knows (about right and wrong) what old men struggle with. It is simple.


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Yes they should and they do.
actually, the words- knowingly about the thief standing outside the house
A pickpocket or a house burglar may be helped by an unlocked house or unzipped pocket, and all these other cases you mention mbhat - the crime is ""committed" - someone DOES it - It is a crime of commission, not ommission.

I never said- it is not crime. i said- if the house owner knowingly (about the condition, still careless) keeps his door open, then he cannot demand help from police with same way. He will have to bend his head down.

I agree one should not tempt fate in a dangerous world, it may even be foolish to be careless, but the person who has had their pocket picked, their house burgled, or been raped, did not in any way cause the criminal to commit the act. The criminal seeks opportunity and is personally responsible (unless insane).

I never disagreed. But, if there is mosquitoes, better use mosquito net always. Why take risk? This was my comment.

The "bad karma" may be that the parents did not teach the child to be more careful or less trusting, so is that the child's fault? Why would the child's suffering be more than the parents'.

That is why knowledge is needed and Baba is giving knowledge as the first paalnaa.

A human soul has intelligence in it self. Hence it can find a way for itself. As you have said-

It is simple. A verse in the dhammapadda says that even a child knows (about right and wrong) what old men struggle with.

So- it is also accountable as it grows even if it is not served by anything or anyone.

Similarly, parents also are accountable for their mistakes or neglecting.

And- you have rightly pointed that- old men struggle with. I feel the reason is due to due to attachment and vices the intellect loses its power. Or probably you may reply what is the cause.

Even "baba's canopy of protection" does not prevent crimes against brahmins, who've experienced rape, murder, assault, theft, molestation etc at the hands of others, with some of the perpetrators of such serious crimes being BKs too.

Yes, of course. i never denied. Baba says- you should be ready to face the situation. Baba gives some yuktis to come out of them, but mainly says- to develop yogbal.

Baba says- do not demand justice. Have faith in drama, be stable both in happiness and sorrow. Keep your action righteous and by yogbal, clear your past sins.
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It is right to ask for justice assertively, but internally, we should not have expectation. That is the right method.

If you feel all the fault or responsibility is on one side, it is up to you.
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Secret in drama:- I am not asking or expecting anyone to behave properly as I had replied above. I find a secret in drama even in this. The point is- More is the freedom in the society, more easy it is to give spiritual knowledge to others. We get easy access to others and others also get easy access to us. Then the responsibility of spreading Baba's message is easier for us.

Then no one can say easily - Oh- we had this restriction of movement in the society, hence could not approach BKWSU to obtain knowledge. So- I do not expect people should be restricted in any way. But, I just feel- when there is freedom, we should use it for the progress, not misuse it. Like if we have more money, better to invest it for the future, instead of spending it wastefully. This was the point I liked to make.

So- whatever happens whether good or bad, right or wrong would be beneficial for a person who does spiritual service. The aim is to flow and not to win someone or something. Our aim is not to make things right in this world. We also know it is impossible, and you have already said- "old men struggle" So- there will be just struggling in this world- is it not?

And- a murli point:- Jo deri se aate hain, unkaa abhee sukh kaa part hai, unhen disturb math karo, unsey disturb math ho = those who came/descend later from Parahmdham, they have part of happiness now. Neither disturb them, nor get disturbed by them.


Another one:- Those who come later, they will have to undergo stages of sato, rajo, tamo faster. So- whatever is happening - there is no surprise.

What you think is also right, and what I feel is also right. Because drama is perfect.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.


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It is simple. A verse in the dhammapadda says that even a child knows (about right and wrong) what old men struggle with.

So- it is also accountable as it grows even if it is not served by anything or anyone.

You picked up on this phrase a couple of times in your reply.

Let's keep it in the intended context here. A child knows: - a child knows what is kindness and what is cruelty, will happily walk around naked, play with its genitals and, unbeguiled, act in other natural ways which the society frowns on and so gets taught what is "appropriate" for that society. Confusion sets in as its taught right/good or wrong/bad and it is made to feel shame about innocent things.

The child is loaded with "baggage" from the family and culture, it hears many unusual ideas and mixed messages about nature, life, duties, what is expected and what's frowned upon, god, karma, the opposite sex, values etc. Complications, confusion and repression lead to much struggle.

"The old men struggle": - is most likely a reference to brahmins and the prolixity of their karma philosophy - the buddha was particularly critical of brahmin scholars for complicating things through superfluous abstractions & flimsy constructs based on false assumptions e.g. atman, caste, etc etc. The old men (or the "senex" in transpersonal psychology) are that part which seek to control and want things to be a particular (conventional) way, where as the child (the "puer") takes things as they come, responding more spontaneously and with no duplicity or prescribed judgement.

Of course, the integration of the two (senex & puer, child & elder) aspects within us and within society is preferable.

I believe what that dhammapadda phrase is saying is: forget all the justifications one may have for trying to explain why things have happened or second-guess what various effects may result in future - or other lifetimes. See it simply, do what is needed at the time - don't use "karma philosophy" or other complications as convenient excuses to avoid doing what is good, like one's social responsibility to others, or for justifying the bad - the disdain or exploitation of the less fortunate members of society.

It is similar to the zen tale I related elsewhere about not assuming to know, where, rather than being caught up in the debate as who's responsibility/ karma the child is or what the truth of the matter is or the ramifications for reputation etc, the old monk simply acts according to the real need, which is to look after the child in front of him.

Those who sit and argue karma, reincarnation, akashic records etc are shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. Buddha said simply "karma is cettana" or if you prefer a paraphrase - we live with choices we make. And, not everything that happens is "karmic deserts". (The brahmin karmic concept tries to include everything, buddhism relates it only to choices, everything else "just is").

The other great teacher of compassion, Jesus, who also punctured the artifice of the religious establishments, tells the parable of the Good Samaritan, which might be retold in India as "the good dalit". Here's my version for hindus :

A merchant on the road is attacked and robbed and left badly injured, in torn and tattered bloodied clothes.

A brahmin walks past and sees the wretched state of this person in the gutter and crosses the road to stay well away, thinking how that person has obviously had some bad karma catch up with them and he does not want to be enmeshed in those bad omens.

A merchant from a rival clan passes and recognises his rival. He is of two minds, should he help him as he is of his caste and an equal? But he decides that he can gain advantage through this fellow's misfortune, and as it's a busy enough road, someone else will surely help soon so he is not "doing" wrong, so he chooses to leave him and travels on.

A poor farmer's labourer passes, a dalit. He immediately goes across to the helpless man in the gutter, tends to his wounds, gives him water and food, then takes him to the nearest inn, where he asks the innkeeper to look after him, promising he will pay costs on his return after he's told the merchant's family what's happened and where he is.

I think in this area of moral and ethical judgements, buddhist and christian teachings are unequivocal about the right course of action, but ("lokik and alokik") brahmin karma philosophy allows equivocation. It lets people off the hook with all kinds of notions of whats deserved, what's "their" karma, how or why they are in their state, of good simple obvious action maybe being inferior to some "more spiritual" service or karma etc etc.

Now, you may have heard a few years ago of a foreign BK woman who was robbed, raped and murdered in Delhi? I knew her, she was a friend. Now, how would BK gyan and "karma philosophy" have us react? What stories and rationalisations would we be expected to tell ourselves? What would we be expected to do, according to 'gyan'?

After the culprits were caught, convicted and jailed, her son - who is not a BK and had little to do with them - chose to travel there and sought out the murderer and his family.

His purpose was simple. He understood that the desperation of a lifetime of poverty was the likely root of the jealous crazed violence, and that the criminal in jail was a human being, a father who had dependants and they were now even worse off than before. He went to help them, paying for the children's education, doing what he could to break the cycle of disadvantage. I barely know the son, but was astonished and inspired by his compassion.
Last edited by Pink Panther on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Confusion sets in as its taught right/good or wrong/bad and it is made to feel shame about innocent things.

So- do you mean to say- it is better not to teach anything to children? If yes, then Ok, then there is no difference between man and animals. Like a mongoose kills a snake, snake kills a frog and frog an insect, man would have been today. Do you expect the level of human beings to be so like animals?

That is why Baba says- "in kaliyug , even children do not have virtues". In satyug, children will not be doing what you have said above. They will be naturally virtuous.
-----

And- regarding braahmin, merchant accident story- I do not say a braahmin should not help physically. He can. But- his level is higher. If he is anaasakt (has dis interest), then he has no bondage of karma.

Geeta says- If one is attachment-free, he has no duties, he can do any karma as well. Murli also says so.

For example- principal of a college is moving around the campus. he finds a garbage. Do you expect the principal to clean the floor or order a peon to do that? [In the above case, if the situation is normal (say free from riots, etc), he can help. Else- if many people are ignoring the merchant, then he need not serve. Because he is not likely to get help from others. Then he may have to take all the burden and lose remembrance of God. In such cases, it would be better if he prays for that soul to get liberation or better (next) birth.

But- if he does not wish to help physically, then he also should not have any expectation from others. That is in case such similar accident happens to him, he should not cry for help. he should be ready to leave his body in God's yaad.


Now, you may have heard a few years ago of a foreign BK woman who was robbed, raped and murdered in Delhi? I knew her, she was a friend. Now, how would BK gyan and "karma philosophy" have us react? What stories and rationalisations would we be expected to tell ourselves? What would we be expected to do, according to 'gyan'?

SM 3-9-73(2,3):- Bachchon may bhi koyi2 hai. Achchaa bhojan na miley to aaraam na aaye. Baba Mamma ka naam bad_naam kar dete hain. Phir samjhaavo to gussaa aa jaataa. YAH NAHIN SAMAJHTE SHIVBABA DHARMARAJ DWARA KITNI SAJA DENGE. Choron ko dar thode hi rahta hai. Vah jaise jail birds ho jate hain. Yahaan bhi aise don’t care karnevaale hain. Vah phir aashcharyavanti bhaaganti ho jate. Maya aisee buri gati kara deti hai. Srimath par nahin chalte. Bas, humko toh asuri math par hi chalna hai, srimath par nahin chalna hai. Amrut peene ke liye ablaavon par atyaachaar hote hain. ATYAACHAAR HI AAHO SOUBHAAGY HAI. Baap se varsaa toh le lenge na. Bahuton par atyaachaar hote hain. Kyonki mooth bigar rah nahin sakte. Baba samjhate they tum pavitr bante ho, mooth bigar rah nahin sakte ho toh maathaa mundvaa gavur may jaakar baitho. Phir aise kade2 akshar sunkar naaraaz bhi hote they… -109 [bandheli, dharmaraj] ={SM 5-9-78(3)}

See the compilation of murli points for baandhelis (attached).

His purpose was simple. He understood that the desperation of a lifetime of poverty was the likely root of the jealous crazed violence, and that the criminal in jail was a human being, a father who had dependants and they were now even worse off than before.

Have you ever thought what is the cause for the life time of poverty?

And- Why cannot rich people donate to poor people instead of spending billions of dollars on entertainment and wars, and waste things?

So- what is the root cause for problems of the whole world in reality?

I barely know the son, but was astonished and inspired by his compassion.

Good. Now, can you inspire people of the whole world?

If you also move in the same path- that is if you also donate for poor people like that person, then the inspiration would be meaningful.


Baba says- even in bhaktimarg, people do good- daan, puny, etc, which gives fruit for one birth. So- that is not strange for us. We respect it, admire it. But, that is not our path now. Like baba says- "your bhakti is over. You have done lots of bhakti, jap, tap, daan, puny, etc for 63 births."

[But, still the world is degrading, is it not?]

Dear soul, You are seeing only of one birth and are trying to solve problem of only one or two persons. [Not of the whole world].
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Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

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