Board index BK Section (BKs & New BK students only please) Murli Points Discussion Atma kya hen? ek shakti ya ek bastu?

Atma kya hen? ek shakti ya ek bastu?


Post Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:32 am

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17) Baba says-. Baath ko math pakado, Bhaavnaa ko pakado= do not get stuck in the words, understand the feelings/intentions

So, we may use any word. The only point is the listener should understand better or best.
So, as the pulse, give the medicine.

18) If you feel - new comer may think omnipresence(spread out through out the body) by the term energy (due to his limited knowledge) , and hence suggest the right word as OBJECT, there is also similar risk of the person assuming soul to be just like physical/corporeal (lifeless) object.

So, use the full term chetan object or spiritual energy. Even if we say soul is power, we say it has form- point. We also clearly say forehead/bhrukuti is the seat of the soul. So, when we give a fixed seat and also say soul is tiny point, there is very less chance of confusion.

But, your point is also right, as someone may feel soul should be spread out like in a body. I agree. More given below.

There is no difference between matter object and energy

19) I tried to explain by going up to extreme level too. That is all.

20) Spiritual object, aadhyyatmik vastu, chetan vastu, source of spiritual energy are the best words.

Mostly, some or many people do not know the meaning of word CHETAN*. That may be the reason for some bks going slightly out of the track to explain.


*21)- Today people are familiar with only material words. There are some people who confuse/assume ghost for the term atma/soul!
Then what to do?

Many times, Baba uses the word STAR to explain Soul. Baba usually says soul is like a small Star. But, then baba has also said/clarified that "soul is not like star. Star (in the picture) has corners. But, soul does not have".

Star is so big, and it's picture is never a point. But, we all including Shivbaba use the word Star extensively, is it not.
The purpose of using the Star is to feel the best form of light . Next to sunlight (God), obviously STAR is the best one that is pleasant, is it not?
---------
22) Now, once again to your view point:- I agree confusion arises( due to limited knowledge of the listener) whether the soul is spread out through out the body when we say soul is energy.
But, actually there is no confusion if we consider the gravitational energy or the potential energy. It is not like spread out throughout the space. It's boundaries are limited to its size.
Is it not? Is there any confusion here?
.Whether all souls irrespective of soul power takes same amount of three dimensional space or it differs to soul to soul as the magnetic energy differ its limit as per the power of magnet, chemical energy differs battery to battery, solar energy differs star to star.

Again whether the amount of space shall vary as per the sato rajo tamo stage of the same soul.

23) Baba has said size of soul or supreme soul are same. Also size, shape etc would be independent of sato, rajo, rajo, etc.
Because soul is eternal, indivisible, etc.

God is highest because both his form and nature (sanskaar or gunn virtues, power) are fixed. They do not change. Soul is next. Its form is fixed, but quality/sanskaar changes.
Nature(prakriti) is last, because there is change both in quantity (form, structure) as well as quality.

However please complete your saying by writing some forms of energy which are omnipresent (not limited to any space), so that I can understand your viewpoint completely.

24) No energy is fully omnipresent. By the term omnipresence, I meant VAST amount of space.
Even in the space, degree/intensity of energy varies from place to place.

Heat energy is almost omnipresent in thus atmosphere, but the temperature changes. Similarly light energy.

If we take magnetic energy of earth, it has different characteristics. There comes polarity, etc.

We cannot compare /equate 100℅ to spiritual energy to physical energy. Even the examples what we give to explain about soul have limitations. Usually we give example of car and driver to explain body and soul. But, there the driver at a time can own more than a car. But, here, a soul cannot .

So, purpose of taking examples is to realize the truth. We can not compare 100% between spiritual and worldly aspects.

Thank you once again.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:31 am

Posts: 169
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Om Shanti
Dear Divine Sisters and Brothers

I shall request the other souls, who are going through this discussion to think on the different points related to the very important question on soul that what am I?

Who am I? Now each of us knew very well and understood very clearly that I am a soul. I am not body. Our supreme teacher has taught us not only about truth but also about falsehood. So whenever Shiv baba, the ocean of knowledge explains on soul or about meaning of “om shanti”, He not only says “I am soul”, but also He says in the next sentence “This is my body”, clarifying that I am not body.

Similarly this topic is not only for the new comers but we the souls should know very clear answer for the most important question “What am I?”

We understand most difficult points when we understand related easier points. OR Always knowledge is imparted from known to unknown.

So our supreme teacher taught us with these words.
Murli (Dt.22/01/2015 Page 1) “हर बस्तु का आकार जरूर होता हैं I उन सबमे छोटे में छोटा आकार हैं आत्मा का I


The meaning is very clear that Shiv Baba says “आत्मा एक बस्तु है I” - जो छोटा से छोटा है I

My most respectable teacher has never taught me that “आत्मा एक शक्ति है I “directly OR indirectly.

I shall request you all again to quote murli point supporting to your understanding that आत्मा एक शक्ति है I

And knowledge only can be given through WORDS. So our sweetest teacher expects from us to use the same words as HE says.

मुरली (03 /07/2017 ) :-
बाबा इस दादा के मुख द्वारा बोलते हैं। जो रत्न बाबा के मुख से निकलते हैं, वही तुम बच्चों के मुख से निकलने चाहिए।

मुरली (05 /01 /2017 ) 2nd page :-
बाबा कितना सहज कर समझाते हैं, फिर धारणा भी होनी चाहिए। फिर जाकर औरों को समझाना चाहिए। तुम गैरन्टी करते हो–बाबा हम सुनकर फिर सुनायेंगे।


मेरे प्यारे बहनों और भाइयों, जब की हम ऐसी important point, हम मीठे बाबा से या मीठी मम्मा से या बड़ी दादियों से सुने ही नहीं की "आत्मा एक चेतन शक्ति है", तो हम क्यों बोलते हैं ?

क्या आपको नहीं लगता की आत्मा की बारे में यह एक important point है ?

कोई दूसरा समझे या न समझे, हम तो अच्छी तरह से समझे मैं आत्मा क्या चीज हूँ ?

मैं खुद ही एक शक्ति हूँ I या मेरे में सारे शक्तियां थी और अब मुझे शिव बाबा से वह शक्तियां फिरसे प्राप्त करनी है I

क्या आप मानेंगे की हमेसा शक्ति का स्रोत कोई न कोई बस्तु होती है ?

आप सभीको फिरसे बिचार करने की अनुरोध है की आत्मा मूल रूप में क्या है एक बस्तु या एक शक्ति ?
फिर कैसा बस्तु या कैसा शक्ति का जबाब में यह चेतन शब्द आएगा I
चाहे चेतन बस्तु कहें या चेतन शक्ति कहें I
आप समझ रहे होंगे की दोनों बातें सत्य नहीं हो सकती I
या तो आत्मा मूल रूप में एक शक्ति होगी या एक बस्तु होगी I
एक बस्तु कभी एक शक्ति हो न सके I
किसी बस्तु में शक्ति समाया हुआ है - इसका मतलव यह नहीं की उस बस्तु को हम एक शक्ति कहेंगे I

आप सभीको फिरसे बिचार करने की अनुरोध है

आपका भाई
ब. कु. अतुल्य

Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:50 pm

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Dear Atulya brother, few more points. Kindly do not feel bad, I am not at all against you, but do not expect others to follow literally. We are just doing dance of knowledge.OK?

25) Examples of Baba using the word cheez :-

Usually the word cheez and vastu are synonyms in most of the cases. Meaning - object.

But, Baba uses differently.


“Gaayan hai drishti say srishti banti hai. Kaun see drishti banti hai aur kab banti hai. Drishti aur srishti ka hee gaayan kyun hai, mukh ka gaayan kyun nahi hai? Sangam par pehley-pehley kya badli kartey hain. Pehla path kya padhaatey hain? Bhai-bhai kee drishti say dekho. Bhai-bhai kee drishti arthaat pehley drishti ko badalney say sab baatein badal jaati hain. Isliye gaayan hai ki drishti say srishti banti hai. Jab aatma ko dekhtey hain tab yah srishti puraani dekhney may aati hai. Purushaarth bhi mukhya is cheez ka hee hai drishti badalney ka. Jab yah drishti badal jaati hai toh sthiti aur paristhiti bhi badal jaati hai. Drishti badalney say gun aur karma aap hee badal jaatey hain. Yah aatmik drishti natural ho jaaye.” (Avyakt Vani taareekh 18.6.69, page 70)


“There is a saying that the world is created through vision. Which vision is created and when? Why is only drishti (vision) and srishti (world) praised, why is mukh (mouth) not praised? What is it that gets changed in the Confluence Age first of all? What is the first lesson that is taught? Look with a vision of bhai-bhai (brotherhood). The vision of bhai-bhai means that by first changing the vision, all other things change. That is why there is a saying that the world is created through vision. When we see the soul, then this world appears to be old. The effort is also for this only, i.e. to change the vision. When this vision changes then the stage and circumstance also changes. By transforming the vision, the quality and actions get transformed automatically. This soul conscious vision should become natural.” (Avyakt Vani dated 18.6.69, page 70 [/quote]

Baba is using the word CHEEZ for drishti/vision. Is drishti an object?

26)

“Kahna aur karney may antar nahi ho. Yahee aapkey course ka saar hai. Kahtey toh aap kayi varshon say ho vikaar buree cheez hai. Auron ko bhi sunaatey ho lekin .....” (Avyakt Vani taareekh 28.9.69, page 109-110)

“There should not be a difference between speech and actions. This is the summary of your course. You have been saying since many years that vices are a bad thing. You even narrate it to others, but you yourself do not live as a ........” (Avyakt Vani dated 28.9.69, page 109


Here Baba has used the word CHEEZ to vices. Are vices object?
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:17 pm

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27) Baba uses the word CHEEZ for Ravan too:-


"एडम ईव तो मशहूर हैं। जरूर गॉड की सन्तान ठहरे। तो गॉ़ड फिर कौन? क्या गॉड से ही जन्म लिया? क्या हुआ? मेरी को वरजिन (कुमारी) क्यों कहते हैं? एक ने पर्चे छपाये कि घोस्ट ने क्राइस्ट को मारा। यह समझते नहीं हैं कि घोस्ट ने कैसे मारा? घोस्ट है ५ विकार रूपी रावण। इसने इनको मारा है। तो उनको तरस पड़ता है कि भगवान ने ऐसी रचना रची क्यों जो उनको घोस्ट से मरवाया। ऐसी सृष्टि रचने का कारण क्या था? ऐसे किसने पर्चा छपाया था। अब उनको हम लिख सकते हैं - आओ, हम आपको समझायें। घोस्ट किसको कहा जाता है। गांधी को किसने मारा? क्रोध था ना। गोया घोस्ट रूपी रावण ने मारा। यह राज्य ही रावण घोस्ट का है। परन्तु रावण क्या चीज़ है,यह नहीं जानते। अब घोस्ट (विकार) तो सबमें है। जैसे वो लोग कुछ छपाते हैं तो बाबा अटेन्शन देते हैं कि यह राज्य ही आसुरी घोस्ट का है। ऐसे तुम बच्चों को भी अटेन्शन दे समझाने की युक्तियां निकालनी चाहिए।" साकार मुरली दिनांक ८.११.०७, पृ.२)

"Adam Eve toh mash-hoor hain. Jaroor God kee santaan thahrey. Toh God fir kaun? Kya God say hee janma liya? Kya hua? 'Mary' ko vigin (Kumari) kyon kahtey hain? Ek nay parchey chapaaye ki ghost nay Christ ko mara. Yah samajhtey nahee hain ki ghost nay kaisey mara? Ghost hai 5 vikaar roopi Ravan. Usnay inko mara hai. Toh unko taras padtaa hai ki Bhagwaan nay aisi rachnaa racheee kyon jo unko ghost say marvaya. Aisi srishti rachney ka kaaran kya tha? Aisey kisney parchaa chapaya tha. Ab unko ham likh saktey hain - aao, ham aapko samjhaayein. Ghost kisko kahaa jaataa hai. Gandhi ko kisney mara? Krodh tha na. Goya ghost roopi Ravan nay mara. Yah raajya hee Ravan ghost ka hai. Parantu Ravan kya cheez hai, yah nahee jaantey. Ab ghost (vikaar) toh sabmey hai. Unkaa hee raajya chal raha hai. Sirf krodh ka bhoot nahee. Sab vikaaron ka bhoot hai. Jaisey voh log kuch chapaatey hain, toh Baba attention detey hain ki yah raajya hee aasuri ghost ka hai. Aisey tum bachchon ko bhi attention dey samjhaaney kee yuktiyaan nikaalnee chaahiye." [i] " (Revised Sakar Murli dated 08.11.07, pg 2)[/quote]
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:55 pm

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28)
“Tum toh Baap ke vaaris baney ho. Toh us behad ke Baap ka janma-din toh manana chaahiye. Dhoomdhaam say Trimurti Shiv Jayanti manaani hai. Kya karein jo bahuton ko maaloom padey? Yah furnaa rahtaa hai na. Kis prakaar kee service karein jo hamaarey Kalpa pehley vaaley Brahman kul bhooshan fir say aa jaayein. Yuktiyaan rachee jaati hain. Baap kahtey hain sivaay akhbaar ke toh mushkil hai. Akhbaar sab taraf jaati hai. Akhbaar ke 2-4 page lena padey. Jab Silver Jublee manaatey hain toh akhbaar may 2-4 page ley letey hain. Ab vah toh common pai paisey kee Silver Jublee manaatey hain. Tumhaari yah Golden Jublee sabsey nyaari hai. Hamesha Golden, Silver Jublee manaatey hain, Copper, Iron Jublee nahee manaatey. 50 varsh hotey hain toh unko Golden Jublee kahaa jaataa hai. Ab tumko Baap kee jayanti manaani hai, jo sabko maaloom padey. Akhbaar may doh page daalein toh koi harja nahee hai. Bahuton ko pataa padnaa chaahiye. Samay naazuk aata jaataa hai. Nahee toh fir deri pad jaayegi. Ab Shiv Jayanti ke liye pehley say hee taiyyaari karnee chaahiye. Akhbaar kay doh page levey jismay Trimurti jhaad aur aajkal kee points likhi jaayein. Ganga snaan say sadgati nahee hoti hai. Jaisey 4 page vala literature hai, vaisey aagey peechey bhi daalaa jaaye. Utartee kalaa aur chadhtee kalaa vala chitra aur jo mukhya chitra hain. Vichaar karnaa chaahiye kaun-kaun say mukhya chitra hain? Jis say manushya samajh jaayein ki barobar durgati hui hai. Baba bachchon ka dhyaan khinchvaatey hain, vichaar saagar manthan karnaa chaahiye. Is baat par bahut thodey bachchey hain jinka khyaal chaltaa hai. 4-5 hazaar karch hoga, harja nahee. Dher bachchey hain, boond-boond talaav ho jaayega……Toh akhbaaron may 4-5 page jaroor leney chaahiye joa bhi serviceable bachchey hain, samajhtey hain ham service kar rahey hain. Pradarshani, projector ke liye chitra banaa rahey hain, jinki buddhi chaltee hai unhon ke liye Baba samjhaa rahey hain. Baap kahtey hain himmatey bachchey madadey Baap baitha hai. Jo buddhivaan padhey likhey bachchey hain vah jhat akhbaar ke liye matter likhkar taiyyaar karengey. Akhbaar may koi CHEEZ daali jaati hai toh unhon ko drishti (searchlight) bhi deni hai. Abhi Shivjayanti may doh adhai maas hain. Tum bahut kaam kar saktey ho. Doh-chaar akhbaaron may daalnaa chaahiye – Hindi aur Angrezi mukhya hain. In dono may chap jaaye. Shivjayanti is reeti manaanaa theek hoga. Saari duniya ke Baap ka birthday hai, yah sabko maaloom pad jaaye. Akhbaarein toh door tak jaati hain. Sensible Editor jo hotey hain, dharmi khyaalaat vaaley hotey hain vah paisey nahee letey hain. Yah toh sabkey kalyaan ke liye hai. Karke thoda kharcha hoga. Himmatey bachchey madadey Baap." ( Sakar Murli taareekh 10.12.07, pg 2)

"You have become the Father’s heir. So, you should celebrate the birthday of that unlimited Father. You have to celebrate the Trimurti Shiv Jayanti with pomp. What should we do so that many people would come to know? We remain concerned about this, don’t we? How should we do service so that those who decorated our Brahmin clan from the previous Kalpa emerge once again. Tactics are adopted. The Father says : It is difficult without the newspapers. Newspapers reach everywhere. We will have to book 2-4 pages of the newspaper. When people celebrate Silver Jubilee, they book 2-4 pages of the newspaper. Well, they celebrate a Silver Jubilee worth a pie-paisa which is common. This Golden Jubilee of yours is very unique. The Golden, Silver Jubilees are always celebrated; The Copper and Iron Jubilees are not celebrated. When 50 years (of someone or something) are completed, it is called a Golden Jubilee. Now you have to celebrate the Father’s birthday so that everyone comes to know about it. It does not matter if you publish on two pages of a newspaper. Many should come to know. Delicate time is nearing. Otherwise, it will become late. Now we should make preparations for Shivjayanti in advance. We should book two pages of a newspaper in which the picture of Trimurti, Tree and the recent points can be written. We cannot achieve true salvation by bathing in the Ganges. Just as there is a 4 page literature. Similarly, it should be published back to back. The picture of the descending and ascending celestial degrees and the main pictures (should be published). You should think which the main pictures are so that the human beings understand that certainly degradation has taken place. Baba draws the attention of the children: you should churn the ocean of thoughts. There are very few children who think on this subject. It may involve an expenditure of 4-5 thousand. It doesn’t matter. There are numerous children; many drops will make a lake…....So, 4-5 pages of the newspaper should certainly be booked; Baba is explaining for those who are serviceable children, who think that they are doing service, who are making pictures for the exhibition, projector shows, and whose intellect works on it. The Father says: the Father, who helps when the children show courage, is sitting here. Those children who are intelligent, well-educated will write matter for newspapers immediately. If something is published in the newspaper, you should give them (those people who print in the newspapers) searchlight as well. Now there are two to two and a half months left for Shivjayanti. You can do a lot of work. It should be published in 2 or 4 newspapers – Hindi and English (newspapers) are important. Let it be published in both of them. It would be proper to celebrate Shivjayanti in this manner. It is the birthday of the Father of the entire world; let everyone know this. Newspapers are circulated far and wide. The one who is a sensible editor, the one with a religious attitude does not take money. This is for everybody’s benefit. It may involve a little expenditure. If the children show courage, the Father will help." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 10.12.07, pg 2 )[/quote]


Actual Hindi word should have been VISHAY or SANDESH instead of CHEEZ. [ Shivbaba is master, can use any word any word. Moreover HE is talking to children so even if there is grammatical errors or some deviation, it does not matter.

Baba says you have to do vichar Sagar Manthan. If we have to do just copy and paste of Shivababa's words, why should Shivbaba say - children should do VIchaar Sagar Manthan and prepare matter for newspaper etc. ]

29) Dear Atulya brother ji,
Do you suggest to say to the newspaper editors - "hum akbaar may kuch CHEEZ daalaa chaahthay hain" ? Or use VISHAY instead of word CHEEZ?
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:18 pm

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“बाप तो तुम्हारे कल्याण के लिए आये हैं। परन्तु बाप की श्रीमत पर चल नहीं सकते। श्रीमत कहे यहाँ जाओ तो जायेंगे नहीं। कहेंगे यहाँ गर्मी है, यहाँ ठण्डी है। बाप को पहचानते नहीं कि कौन हमको कहते हैं? यह साधारण रथ ही बुद्धि में आता है। वह बाप बुद्धि में आता ही नहीं है। बड़े राजाओं का कितना सबको डर रहता है। बड़ी अथारिटी होती है। यहाँ तो बाप कहते हैं मैं गरीब निवाज़ हूँ। मुझ रचता और रचना के आदि-मध्य-अन्त को कोई नहीं जानते हैं। कितने ढ़ेर मनुष्य हैं। कैसी-कैसी बातें करते हैं, क्या-क्या बोलते हैं। भगवान क्या चीज़ होती है, यह भी जानते नहीं। वन्डर है ना।“(
रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक ०६.०२.०९, पृ. २)


"Baap toh tumhaarey kalyaan ke liye aaye hain. Parantu Baap ki Shrimat par chal nahi saktey. Shrimat kahey yahaan jao toh jaayengey nahi. Kahengey yahaan garmi hai, yahaan thandi hai. Baap ko pehchaantey nahi ki kaun hamko kahtey hain? Yah sadharan rath hi buddhi mein aata hai. Vah Baap buddhi mein aata hi nahi hai. Barey raajaon ka kitna sabko dar rahta hai. Bari authority hoti hai. Yahaan toh Baap kahtey hain mein garib niwaaz hoon. Mujh rachtaa aur rachnaa ke aadi-madhya-anth ko koi nahi jaantey hain. Kitney dher manushya hain. Kaisi-kaisi baatein kartey hain, kya-kya boltey hain. Bhagwaan kya CHEEZ hoti hai, yah bhi jaantey nahi. Wonder hai na." - revised Sakar Murli, dinaank 06.02.09, pg 2)

“The Father has come for your benefit. But you cannot follow the Father’s Shrimat. If Shrimat says – Go there, they will not go. They will say – this place is hot, this place is cold. They do not recognize the Father as to who is speaking to us. Their intellect thinks of this ordinary Chariot. The intellect does not think of that Father. People fear big kings so much. They have big authority. Here, the Father says I am a friend of the poor ones. Nobody knows the beginning, middle and end of the creator and creation. There are so many human beings. They speak differently. They do not even know as to what is God. It is a wonder, isn’t it?” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 06.02.09, pg 2 )

30) Shivbaba is saying - Bhagavan kyaa CHEEZ hai, koyi naheen jaanthay = What object God is, no one knows.

Can we say these words AS THEY ARE in public?

We usually say - "no one knows introduction of God. "

When Baba speaks HE speaks with intoxication. If we children have high level of spiritual stage we too can speak in the same manner. Else if we speak in the same way it would appear as ego.

–-----------
31) Baba uses another word - Avyaky CHEEZ. = Subtle object.

Avyakt CHEEZ may buddhi lagaaney may Maya hairaan karti hai = (mostly date is 08 - 03- 2008)

32) So, the point is- Baba uses the word CHEEZ in general way. He uses that word for almost everything. So, it will be good if we children discriminate and explain to others.
-------
33) Baba usually says- Shiv and Shaktis are combined. Not once or twice, but many times.

So, when Shivbaba calls us as Shaktis directly, why should we feel bad to call ourselves as shaktis?

34) Another example- Usually Baba says- Aatma Mann, buddhi sahith hai = soul includes mind and intellect.
In THAT SENTENCE, Baba does not include Sanskaar. So, while giving introduction, should we say only two faculties of the soul or all the three?

Dear brother, kindly do not feel bad. You have brought very good points, and you have very good level of churning. I myself increased my level of knowledge being with you.

Thank you and Baba.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:01 pm

Posts: 169
Link with BKs: BK
Om Shanti

Dear Divine brother mbbhatji,

Thank you very much for the quotes of murli with different meanings of the word “चीज़” CHEEZ and “बस्तु” VASTU.
point-25 – av murli dt.18/06/1969 - the word “चीज़” – used for दृष्टि / vision
Point-26 – av murli dt.28/09/1969 - the word “चीज़” – used for विकार / vices
Point-27 – s murli dt.08/11/2007 - the word “चीज़” – used for राबण / ravan
Point-28 – s murli dt.10/12/2007 - the word “चीज़” – used for article for newspaper
Point-30 s murli dt.06/02/2009 – the word “चीज़” used for भगवान, but meaning is not वस्तु
Point 31 s murli dt. 08/03/2008 - the word “चीज़” used for अव्यक्त चीज़ / subtle object



I agree with you and understand very well that our sweetest Baba has used the word “चीज़” for different things / cheezes with different meaning with different context.

Also to answer your question in your Point-29
“Do you suggest to say to the newspaper editors - "hum akbaar may kuch CHEEZ daalaa chaahthay hain" ? Or use VISHAY instead of word CHEEZ?


I feel that the ocean of knowledge, master of languages, has told the sentence accurately “अखवारों में कोई चीज डाली जाती है तो दृष्टी भी देनी है” There is nothing wrong in this sentence. You may clarify with any degree holder of hindi language.
If something is published in the newspaper, you should give them (those people who print in the newspapers) searchlight as well.


Further I understand that the translation / understanding about the word “search light” for the meaning of दृष्टी is not correct. Here our sweetest BABA says to pay attention on the articles to be published in news-paper, so that nothing should be printed wrongly as well as can be published in time.

Your point 33- Baba usually says- Shiv and Shaktis are combined. Not once or twice, but many times.

As per my understanding sweetest BABA uses the word “Shakti” or “shaktiyan” for sisters and mothers. Devis are called shiv-shakti. It does not mean to the soul.

So my dear elder brother, I do not feel bad for your writings, but expects to the point answer with less words as far as possible. Sometimes I feel your points not exactly related to topic, but can be discussed in another topic. We should focus on the topic, so that the active viewers of this website can understand the different views for the particular topic.

Now coming to the topic again :-
It is only to answer the meaning of “बस्तु” in this particular murli point:- (Dt.22/01/2015 Page 1) “हर बस्तु का आकार जरूर होता हैं I उन सबमे छोटे में छोटा आकार हैं आत्मा का I”

My understanding of this murli point is:- “आत्मा एक बस्तु है I” - जो छोटा से छोटा है I
The meaning of “बस्तु” here is object which takes three dimensional space.

Q-1 What is your understanding in this particular murli point ?
You may refer the adjacent sentences of this murli dt. 22/01/2015 Page 1.

In your point-20
Spiritual object, aadhyyatmik vastu, chetan vastu, source of spiritual energy are the best words.


I understand your view point that soul is spiritual object as well as spiritual energy.
But my understanding says anything cannot be both object as well as energy at the same time. Matter is not energy but it can be converted to energy.
Spiritual knowledge or knowledge of science only can be understood with words of any language. The terminology matter, mass, object, energy are different not synonymous.

So you have to opt within the two options. Either you should say soul is energy as it is written in newly published book of our elder sister Usha bahen. Our most reputed sister “Sister Shivani” speaks in almost all episodes telecast in TV that soul is energy / I am energy.
Our authorised website of UK -http://www.brahmakumaris.org/uk/whatwedo/courses/fcirym/topics.htm , , it is mentioned that the soul is a spiritual energy.

OR you should opt as per basic book of our 7 days course written by our master knowledge-full brother Jagdish bhaiji. - Ref-Page-19 of “साप्ताहिक पाठ्यक्रम ” it is clearly written in bold letter that “आत्मा एक चेतन वस्तु हैं I” and murli points.

I would like to write again that
या तो आत्मा मूल रूप में एक शक्ति होगी या एक बस्तु होगी I

एक बस्तु कभी एक शक्ति हो न सके I

किसी बस्तु में शक्ति समाया हुआ है - इसका मतलव यह नहीं की उस बस्तु को हम एक शक्ति कहेंगे I

If you say it is spiritual object then first it is object then what type of object? It is not physical but subtle / spiritual / eternal any suitable word you may give as per your understanding.

If you say it is spiritual energy then first it is energy then what type of energy? It is not similar to energy of science but it is spiritual or any suitable word you may give.

So please understand the question “मूल रूप में आत्मा क्या है ? Energy / Object

Yours brother
BK Atulya

Post Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:40 am

Posts: 2524
Link with BKs: BK

The word “Shakti” or “shaktiyan” for sisters and mothers. Devis are called shiv-shakti. It does not mean to the soul.

35) BABA says- Shiv and shaktis are combined. Are only sisters combined?
[Your point is right that Baba might had used the word shakti because in bhaktimarg, devis are called as shaktis. So, why they are called as shaktis? Obviously, the final or original stage is of power, is it not?- so the argument still does not lose the whole value].

There are also murli points which say -
"Shaktis are also pandavas, and pandavas are also shaktis. "
What is your understanding in this particular murli point ?
You may refer the adjacent sentences of this murli dt. 22/01/2015 Page 1.

36) I never objected about soul to be called as an object. Have I?
But my understanding says anything cannot be both object as well as energy at the same time.

37) It can be. I had given the example of potential energy. It is mass/object as well as energy at the same time. See point No. 22.

And, it is highly surprised that you do not agree to call God as Supreme Power (param shakti). Many people would call God as Supreme Power. Should we say it is wrong?
किसी बस्तु में शक्ति समाया हुआ है - इसका मतलव यह नहीं की उस बस्तु को हम एक शक्ति कहेंगे I ........

38) Very nice churning. Salutes to the great soul. But, as I have already said in point no. 17) and 36) for me, the matter is not a big issue.

If you say it is spiritual object then first it is object then what type of object? It is not physical but subtle / spiritual / eternal any suitable word you may give as per your understanding.

If you say it is spiritual energy then first it is energy then what type of energy? It is not similar to energy of science but it is spiritual or any suitable word you may give.

39) Good point. But, this need not apply in all the cases, as said in point no. 22 and more explained below.×

Please understand the question aatmaa mool roop may kyaa hai?

40a) Take the smallest particle - electron. Is it a particle/object or wave/energy? It is said as both. It is called dual nature - [url]. https://webs.morningside.edu/slaven/Phy ... inty3.html
[/url]

http://maggiesscienceconnection.weebly.com/dual-nature-of-light.html


https://www.emedicalprep.com/study-material/chemistry/atomic-structure/dual-nature-of-electron/

You can even search more in google about this duality property.

40b) Even if we consider electron to be a particle, It has charge. So, It is a INHERENTLY CHARGED particle. So, I feel It is energy and object at the same time.

41) Soul would be even smaller than electron- right? (See the murli point dated 22- 01- 2005 pg 2, which is already put above. It says- the smallest object is soul -right?)

So, in MOOL ROOP (basically) , how would you like to analyze?- take any case 40a) or 40b) . [Also point No. 37 = 22 cannot be ignored- right?]

43) Baba says- "atma shanth swaroop hai = peace is self form (original form) of soul".
ROOP means form- right?
Then one that has form should be an object, right?
So should we say peace is an object? And peace is basically object?

Or if my translation for the word Swaroop is wrong, kindly correct it.

×44) Now, when light is said to be both particle and wave, how should we say. Is it first energy and then objectfirst or first object and then energy?


Salutes to the great soul and Baba.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:46 am

Posts: 169
Link with BKs: BK
Om Shanti

Dear Divine brother mbbhatji,

Q-1 What is your understanding in this particular murli point ?
murli point:- (Dt.22/01/2015 Page 1) “हर बस्तु का आकार जरूर होता हैं I उन सबमे छोटे में छोटा आकार हैं आत्मा का I”

Answer
36) I never objected about soul to be called as an object. Have I?


But my dear brother is not writing that “Yes” Sweetest Baba says in this murli point that Soul is the smallest object / बस्तु .

But my understanding says anything cannot be both object as well as energy at the same time.

Brother mbbhat writes
P-37) It can be. I had given the example of potential energy. It is mass/object as well as energy at the same time. P-22. It is not like spread out throughout the space. Its boundaries are limited to its size.


Gravitational Potential energy is the energy possessed by a body by virtue of its position relative to others. It is dependent on the masses of two bodies and their distance apart.

Potential energy is not mass of the object, but depends on the mass of the object.

Potential energy is not the object but possessed by the object.

My understanding - potential energy is possessed by each molecule of that object and so it exists in a spread out manner though its boundary is limited to the size of the object.

Brother mbbhat writes -
it is highly surprised that you do not agree to call God as Supreme Power (param shakti). Many people would call God as Supreme Power. Should we say it is wrong?


परमात्मा सर्वशक्तिमान है I

हम जिस बिषय पर चर्चा कर रहे हैं उसको बुद्धि में रखते हुए आप बिचार करें की क्या हम परमात्मा को परम-शक्ति कह सकते ?

सर्वशक्तिमान अर्थात उनमें सर्व शक्तियाँ है या वह सर्व शक्तियों के अधिकारी है I

कोई भाई या बहन भले बोल रहे हैं या लिख भी रहे हैं I परन्तु वह हमारे परम-प्रिय परम-पिता हैं I उनके लिए यह परम-शक्ति शब्द मेरे समझ से उनका असम्मान होगा I वह कोई “शक्ति” नहीं बल्कि हमारे पिता हैं I

कोई भी मुरली में आप यह नहीं पाएंगे की - “मै परम शक्ति हूँ।“

Yours brother
BK Atulya

Post Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:54 am

Posts: 2524
Link with BKs: BK
acc01775 wrote:
°
Q-1 What is your understanding in this particular murli point ?
murli point:- (Dt.22/01/2015 Page 1) “हर बस्तु का आकार जरूर होता हैं I उन सबमे छोटे में छोटा आकार हैं आत्मा का I”

But my dear brother is not writing that “Yes” Sweetest Baba says in this murli point that Soul is the smallest object / बस्तु .

45) My reply had been YES at the very first instant itself. I thought you know it.
But, I do not like to come to conclusion just by taking isolated(one or two) Murli points. I consider other related Murli points too.

46) If you expect to stick to the above Murli point, then why should we add the word CHETAN to it? Can you show any Murli point which says "soul is Chetan vastu?" If not who gives permission to add it?
[ dear brother I know it is perfectly alright I am responding in this way because when we know that in some other Murali, Baba has implied Atma is a Chetan.
Then obviously from some other Murali points I think it is not wrong to say soul is spiritual energy]

Gravitational Potential energy is the energy possessed by a body by virtue of its position relative to others. It is dependent on the masses of two bodies and their distance apart.

Potential energy is not mass of the object, but depends on the mass of the object.

47) Irrespective of relative positions between the bodies, each body has its own gravitational potential which is dependent on just its mass and radius that is mass and size.
Each body is capable of attracting any other body. Ability to attract another body is nothing but ability to do work and we know energy means ability to do work.
So, it passes the definition of energy!

The relative positions between the bodies, etc, etc are necessary only to calculate the exact value of the potential energy. That's all.

Gravitational potential gives the figure what is called as acceleration due to gravity which gives a measure of the ability of an object to attract other objects, which is just dependent on its own mass and size.

If you expect comparison between spiritual and worldly aspects should fit 100℅, then we cannot use even the word object. Because the definition of object means one should have mass and size.
So far no Bk or Shivbaba has talked about mass of a soul or God. Can you talk about this? It should have spiritual mass right, but Shivbaba has not talked about that.

So, if we claim that object is the only right word to explain soul, then also it would be highly difficult to explain soul full in that view.

My understanding - potential energy is possessed by each molecule of that object and so it exists in a spread out manner though its boundary is limited to the size of the object.

48) But it is limited to the boundary of the object. Is that not enough?

How do you define object? Object is also spread out like. Any object has lot of molecules together. There is lot of empty space inside an object.
Even though the soul is small size, it still has some size, right? Then obviously it is like spread out.

But, there is another type of object called solid mass having no empty space within. It is full of matter. So far it is only a theoretical concept .

(If you expect the comparison to fit to the extemt of 100℅ between spiritual and worldly aspects , we will fail as said above. We cannot even use the example of car and driver to explain concept of soul.

We should always try to make things simpler, not complicated. If we stick to word object while ignoring other, I feel we are making it complicated. )

हम जिस बिषय पर चर्चा कर रहे हैं उसको बुद्धि में रखते हुए आप बिचार करें की क्या हम परमात्मा को परम-शक्ति कह सकते ?[

49) While discussing, I usually take the matter whole, not just like tail of an elephant.

कोई भाई या बहन भले बोल रहे हैं या लिख भी रहे हैं I परन्तु वह हमारे परम-प्रिय परम-पिता हैं I उनके लिए यह परम-शक्ति शब्द मेरे समझ से उनका असम्मान होगा I वह कोई “शक्ति” नहीं बल्कि हमारे पिता हैं I

50) But, if we say_ God as an object , then it would look worse, because then it will look like- our father is an object.

Will anyone like to called his father as object?

51) Baba says soul or God are Jyoti-bindu. - point of light.
Now, what is light according to your understanding? Object or energy. Mostly you will say it as energy.
Then point of light means point of energy- right?

52) You did not reply to other points - 40 to 44 and 6.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

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