Board index Misc. BK History related topics Brahma: from Prajapati to Prajapita

Brahma: from Prajapati to Prajapita


Post Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:46 pm

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Somewhere after 1950, Lekhraj Kripalani changed his title, or had his title changed, from 'Prajapati God Brahma' to 'Prajapita Brahma'.

    How did this change happen?
    Who decided upon it and when?

For Western BKs, this may seem an insignificantly difference. Perhaps it is just a misspelling of the same word ... a new name ... a new brand but business as usual. It is just something way back in the lost history of the Yagya which was removed, rewritten and hidden around the time when God Shiva was first introduced, perhaps?

Philosophically, however, it is not. It signified a very major change of attitude, and examining such self given titles helps us to understand more the mental state of the early Om Mandli, and the reaction to it.

Classically, what did/do the titles mean?

'Pati' in Hindi or Urdu means "master" or "lord". 'Praja' could mean "people" or "subjects". 'Pita', as we know, means "father" therefore, we move from 'Lord of the Subjects' to 'Father of the People' ... quite a considerable softening.

In the earliest writings of Hinduism, Prajapati Brahma is viewed as the ultimate creator, said to have made the heavens and the earth, and the creatures that live within the universe. Literally. It means "Lord of Creatures", or "The Lord of All Living Things" and was used to refer to an entire class of deities and a lot of hands on procreation.

Is it really unreasonable that the Hindus of Sind took offence to uneducate, basically irreligious, nouveau riche merchant suddenly claiming that he is now the "Lord of the All Subjects", "Sermoniser of the Gita" and taking a young relative as his 'Saraswati'?

Our handicap in being unable to understand the significances of such things is a severe disadvantage that applies to other words, e.g. Kumari, which we have told means "daughter" but also has connotations of "Princess" ... Lord of the People and his Princesses. It captures some of the inflated superiority and could be one root of the "royalty" theme that runs through BKism, does not it? (The other being LK's infatuation with the British and India royalty of the time).

The truth is, I do not know the whole truth is ... but I do know that I was sold a false "truth" about all this and misled.

What really was Lekhraj doing calling himself Prajapati God Brahma? It really does not fit in with the vision of sincere, humble, religious man we have been given, does it?
Prajapati (Brahma) desired his daughter (Saraswati) and made love to her. This was a sin in the eyes of the gods, who said to the god who rules over beasts, "He commits a sin, acting in this way towards his own daughter, our sister. Pierce him. Rudra took aim and pierced him ...

Satapatha Brahmana 1:7:4:1-7

When Prajapati was alone, he got afraid. He divided his body into two. One half became a man and the other half a woman. From their sexual union, human beings came into existence. When woman became tired of Prajapati's interests, she ran away and took the form of a cow. The Prajapati became an ox and united with her. The cows were created in this way. The woman later took the forms of every kind of animal, bird, etc and the Prajapati also changed accordingly. All the living things came into existence in this way.
As soon as souls indulge in vice, they experience bad omens. Their intellect is locked up. This is an incognito, severe punishment. Then such souls would never be able to say, "God says that lust is the greatest enemy". SM 2003/09/02

Post Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:57 am

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Along with the translations you mention - Lord and Father, according to an online translator "Pati" also can mean husband and progenitor - hence the creation myth you quote.

"Pita" does seem to be a variant for 'father' but probably int he spoken laguage of hindi rather than the classical sanskrit.

I will proffer the suggestion that the more haughty, grand sire and authoritative "Pati" became the simpler relational "pita" when God became Shiva and Brahma became human again.

Maybe some research into when the terms changed will show a correlation with when the 'gyan" changed.

Post Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:12 pm

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Pink Panther wrote:
Along with the translations you mention - Lord and Father, according to an online translator "Pati" also can mean husband and progenitor - hence the creation myth you quote.

I will proffer the suggestion that the more haughty, grand sire and authoritative "Pati" became the simpler relational "pita" when God became Shiva and Brahma became human again.

I accept those points.

Lord and Husband. Is husband not one of the relationships the BK encourage, and practically he played that part?

Although I find it hard to believe ANYTHING Jagdish Chander writes, he talks of the "pure and humble" Lekhraj Kripalani but the Prajapati God Brahma cannot be said to be that. What you highlight, of Lekhraj Kripalani "becoming human again", may have been a precusor to that. It must have been, excuse the pun, an Almighty change ... and undocumented.

It is these kinds of considerations and others, e.g. the becoming of LK as the "medium", which I see as missing from the BKWSU's own historical review.

I wonder if he just got over his mid-life crisis, or the chemical imbalances worked themselves out? I wonder if he ever repented for all the earlir craziness?
As soon as souls indulge in vice, they experience bad omens. Their intellect is locked up. This is an incognito, severe punishment. Then such souls would never be able to say, "God says that lust is the greatest enemy". SM 2003/09/02

Post Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:25 am

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Prajapati means pati/husband of praja/the subjects, and pita means father of praja. Maybe it is related to the ways of attracting and forming of relationship – like a husband/protector or like father/provider.

Post Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:52 pm

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Baba had used the bhaktimarg way to teach in the beginning. He used the method- known to unknown.

So- he had initially said- I am indivisible light (akhand jyoti), then ling, then thumb, then star, then point.

As in scriptures, it is mentioned that Prajapati brahma created humanity (corporeal world), Shivbaba might have been projected Brahma Baba as God Prajapati Brahma.

But, even during that time, BKs never believed Brahma as highest. They believed the indivisible light as the highest.

See Gita sloka 3-10

the-knowledge-events-incident-and-mysteries-t1167-50.html
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:30 pm

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mbbhat wrote:
But, even during that time, BKs never believed Brahma as highest. They believed the indivisible light as the highest.

But that is not quite true. According to Om Radhe in the 30s - 40s they were, quote-unquote, "higher than god" god at that point being the infinite divine light.

Post Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:13 pm

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Fine. There was distinguishing between the two. That will serve the purpose.

Because no one will feel the incorporeal thing easily.
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There are clear murli points-
1)Even if vision of soul is given, one will not understand.
2) Even if vision of soul is given, one will not understand whether it is of soul or supreme soul. (even for a BK).

And, in beginning, Baba used to give vision of Krishna. Shiva himself put Brahma/Krishna ahead of him. So- no surprise in it. Even today, vision of Brahma is given, not of Shiva. The person comes to BK centre in search of Brahma and not Shiva! He gets knowledge. He realizes Shivbaba only after the BK sister/brother gives him the 7 days course.] but, today, there are enough readymade souls who can give course.

I know that we cannot satisfy (make others believe) worldly people. When they cannot believe in BK knowledge, how can i expect them to believe in these reasoning? [BK knowledge believes- only those deity souls will get belief in BK philosophy, others cannot] -

So I do not think there is intention to satisfy all the expectations of others. [Of course, any new comer can get knowledge through this forum, others can enhance, share, and try to get something if they find useful to them, etc]

My intention was just to put some hints so that- This may help some BK souls.
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Half knowledge is dangerous. So- we should take anything as whole. See past, present, future together to get full/right idea.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

Post Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:00 am

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It is these kinds of considerations and others, e.g. the becoming of LK as the "medium", which I see as missing from the BKWSU's own historical review.

I wonder if he just got over his mid-life crisis, or the chemical imbalances worked themselves out? I wonder if he ever repented for all the earlir craziness?


Not all people are silly enough to go into such issues, so this is not dealt in detail in historical accounts.
Any sensible person would understand that in the beginning Dada Lekhraj himself did not realise full impact of what he was getting into when Shiv Baba started giving knowledge through him. He has no reference other than scriptures of bhakti to understand gyan. when Shiv baba said you are Brahma, the bhakti marg title was "Prajapati". When Brahma Baba became more refined by practicing yog and imbibing more spiritual knowledge, he felt "Prajapita" was better suited for his purpose than "Prajapati". If he was not humble, he would not have changed it. Shiv Baba did not think that "Prajapati" was significant issue compared to other issues he was dealing with when giving gyan at that time. So instead of focusing on not so relevant issues, it would be better if one concentrated on becoming like Brahma Baba as an inspiration to others.

Post Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:45 am

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Not contributing directly to this topic, only wish to say a couple of things that came to mind while reading this discussion, from my perspective as an " ex-" and having recently read about some similar summaries of other groups' histories:

1.There are many other groups, small new religious movements that have gone through similar dynamic phases as the BKs , where the original teacher and teachings have to adapt to ''unfulfilled' predictions and other events.

2. When we read about the beginnings, history and development of another group or religion, e.g. scientology, or Hare Krisna or TM or Rajneesh, even the major religions, etc - we tend to be sceptical, wondering how the followers believed it and how it is they continued despite the revisions and changes and, to us, blatant demands on faith etc above reason and objectivity. When it is something we identify with, the attitude changes.

In fact, i think i will post something that was going around on facebook recently, the BKs get a mention - look for that in a new topic.


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