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Proposal: Library of historical documents

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bksimonb User avatar
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The bkinfo website has an impressive collection of historically significant documents. Currently, the only collection available.

Following from recent discussions on this forum, particularly with Robin, I feel that there is a need for a neutral repository for such documents where they are collected for a better understanding of the Brahma Kumaris, and its history.

I am opening his thread to discuss the technical side, the ethics, the utility etc of the whole effort. To give an example, here are some of the issue I think we could discuss,

  • Copyright clearance
  • Authenticity of material
  • Ethics of acquisition (i.e. was it stolen from a safe or published and kept)
  • Source of document (e.g. no documents simply copied from bkinfo)
  • Recommended upload/storage/download formats and resolutions
  • Upload mechanism
  • Presentation format or library format


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Simon writes:
1.Copyright clearance
2.Authenticity of material
3.Ethics of acquisition (i.e. was it stolen from a safe or published and kept)
4.Source of document (e.g. no documents simply copied from bkinfo)
5.Recommended upload/storage/download formats and resolutions
6.Upload mechanism
7.Presentation format or library format


Hi Simon ,
I have numbered your points for ease of reference.

1. Out of copyright no question.

2.None of the Dadis or senior brothers to whom I have shown the British Library documents have questioned their authenticity.

3.The BL would have accepted the documents from source ( though according to the receipt stamp, I believe they were originally sent to the British Museum) …but impossible to ascertain years after.

4. Easily obtained from BL by any interested party with photo ID, but considerable costs of printing them are there. bkinfo has very good resolution copies, which, I would suggest, need personal verification only at BL by this site's admin.

bkinfo has had the material since 2007, I can vouch for its authenticity having originally come across the documents at the BL.

BKWSU leadership and its apologists, alas, are still far behind in open heartedness, honesty and transparency with the Descent of God tale : bkinfo for all its bolshiness deserves some credit.

5,6 and 7 are beyond my knowledge.

bksimonb User avatar
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Hi Robin,

robin wrote:
1. Out of copyright no question.


For the British library documents, yes. However we also need to consider other documents of interest that would be uploaded. Also, although I am not an expert in copyright law, and may be completely off-base here, as I understand it if someone takes a photo of, say, the Mona Lisa, although the painting itself is out of copyright the photographer still owns the copyright to that particular photograph.

robin wrote:
2.None of the Dadis or senior brothers to whom I have shown the British Library documents have questioned their authenticity.

Only useful if in writing that we can quote. The key here is to ask who would doubt the authenticity of a document, why they would doubt it and how could we address that possible objection. For example, if someone was writing an academic book or article about the BK and used one of these documents as a source, and they were challenged during the peer review process, would they have enough confidence in their document source to remove all reasonable doubt about it?

robin wrote:
3.The BL would have accepted the documents from source ( though according to the receipt stamp, I believe they were originally sent to the British Museum) …but impossible to ascertain years after.

No problem with that.

robin wrote:
4. Easily obtained from BL by any interested party with photo ID, but considerable costs of printing them are there. bkinfo has very good resolution copies, which, I would suggest, need personal verification only at BL by this site's admin.

bkinfo has had the material since 2007, I can vouch for its authenticity having originally come across the documents at the BL.

The problem is that the bkinfo site is a disaster zone of credibility. Certainly to BKs, and possibly to anyone potentially researching the BKs, the site is nutty and toxic and everything from it is tainted. It is probably clear to anyone reading the site that it is run by someone with a ferocious agenda to harm the BK and individual BKs who will stop at nothing, including diddling documents, to achieve that aim. Those have us who have seen how Ex-l operates on Wikipedia have direct experience of grossly misrepresented and over-interpreted primary sources. It really doesn't inspire confidence.

robin wrote:
BKWSU leadership and its apologists, alas, are still far behind in open heartedness, honesty and transparency with the Descent of God tale : bkinfo for all its bolshiness deserves some credit.

Bkinfo hasn't resolved that issue and never will by itself. Its like the wind and sun competing to get someone to remove their coat. The wind just caused them to hold on to their coat tighter. When the sun shone they took their coat off voluntarily.

We need to present our history as something wonderful and interesting, not as a big, black, hairy spider dangling in front of those whom we wish to influence.


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Hi Simon…I am sure a call to a sympathetic BK lawyer would clarify your concerns, which, with respect, I think you overstate.

But yes, that is the point, the yagya history is wonderful and interesting…but much, much more than that it is the story of how humanity came to understand that controversial entity G O D: unless we BKs are total crackpots, which may well be the case. Unfortunately this once in a kalpa, world shattering event The Story of God's Descent, is trivialised as 'yagya history,' .

As the late BK Dr Wendy Sargent, appointed to research the tale by BK leadership , in her report to the Regional Coordinators 2010 Conference wrote :
'Sensitivity to criticism of the yagya need not cause us to water down the story and make it seem much less than it is".

BK leadership has chosen not to listen to Dr Wendy, apparently.
Last edited by robin on Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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BK leadership has chosen not to listen to Dr Wendy, apparently.


SM 12-2-83(1):- Gyaan ki poonji tumhaarey paas hai. Isliye tumhen bahut falak se sabko samjhaanaa hai. KISI SE BHI DISCUSS KARNE KI DARKAAR NAHIN. -58 [service]

= You have source of knowledge. Hence you need to explain to all with intoxication. There is no need to discuss with anyone.

"Tumhein koi se bhi debate karney ki darkaar nahi. Deh sahit deh ke sab dharma tyaag apney ko aatma, ashareeri samajhnaa hai. Bhal hamney shaastra aadi padhey hain, parantu discuss kyon karein?" (Sakar Murli, dinaank 05.12.08, pg 3)

“You need not debate with anyone. Renounce all the religions of the body including the body and consider yourself to be a soul, bodiless. Although we have studied scriptures, etc., but why should we discuss?” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 05.12.08, pg 3)

There is another murli point- If someone says something to you- tell them- we are here not to listen from others, but to give godly message. Arji(application) is ours, marji (decision to accept or reject) is yours.

The above may be the reason for not listening to others.

But- if some like to discuss, let them. I have no complaints, because all are right as per drama.
Murli Pt:- Gambheerataa se full marks jamaa hota hai. Mamma toh gambheerataa kee devi thi. = The virtue seriousness gives full marks. Mamma was a deity of seriousness.

bksimonb User avatar
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robin wrote:
Hi Simon…I am sure a call to a sympathetic BK lawyer would clarify your concerns, which, with respect, I think you overstate.
I think I found some more info on this from the web museum, ibiblio.org, at least in regard to the US, where this server is hosted. From the article...
...when someone photographs a painting of Van Gogh in a museum, producing a picture that is indistinguishable from other photographs of the same work, this cannot be considered an original art creation.
So it appears you are correct and I overstated the concern.

Actually, having discovered Ibiblio I wonder if we are reinventing the wheel here... I can see that bkinfo have already uploaded the "Reply to 'Is this Justice'".

robin wrote:
As the late BK Dr Wendy Sargent, appointed to research the tale by BK leadership , in her report to the Regional Coordinators 2010 Conference wrote :
'Sensitivity to criticism of the yagya need not cause us to water down the story and make it seem much less than it is".

BK leadership has chosen not to listen to Dr Wendy, apparently.

Maybe they are happy for others to take on the task!

VisionOfSelf User avatar
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BkSimonb, would the wiki-in-progress that has come up a few times on this forum suffice: http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/wiki

The history portion could be an article within this e.g see. http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/wiki/ ... ry_Summary presented from more of an academic perspective.

Or if you want to go for a dropbox style library that may also be good.

bksimonb User avatar
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Hi VOS,

Yes, the Wiki definitely is a useful resource. It would be a useful framework to build the library around.

I think the Wiki upload facility would be sufficient for uploading material as long as it is sensibly presented i.e. no needlessly massive BMP files :o

Is the Wiki open for business now? How would forum members contribute?

VisionOfSelf User avatar
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Users can click "Create account" on the top right at www.brahmakumarisforum.net/wiki
Please use same username/email. Then one of the admins will approve

Is the Wiki open for business now?

More or less, yes. We probably need to create some structure / list of items (or will that organically develop)?


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